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Spoilers General Disco Chat Thread

The next points are: even the TOS Movies didn't follow the TOS approach. They changed status quos even if they were changed back afterwards. One film led into the next. Film sequels built on top of each other and if TOS was a TV Series that turned into a Film Series, it had to become a film series. At least one for the '80s. It adapted to its format. The Kelvin Films did the same in order to be successful as 21st Century Summer Blockbusters.

DS9 was the only Star Trek series to not follow the standard TOS/TNG approach throughout its run and it evolved toward arc-based storytelling. Prestige TV is modeled after arc-based storytelling. Thus DS9, especially the end of DS9, was the closest thing Star Trek had to what Prestige TV was doing. Until Discovery.

The 10-episode Final Chapter of DS9 was a prototype being the length of a modern season. Every major arc DS9 did was based on a war. The arc ENT did during Season 3 was also a war. So I can see DSC picking up where that idea left off. So DSC did cover older ground by doing a war as its story arc but, nevertheless, an all-out war with vicious 23rd Century Klingons -- not the lovable biker 24th Century Klingons -- was something that had never been done before. But ceding the point of having an arc based on a war is ground that was already covered, that brings us to the next season...

Season 2 is doing a season-long arc that's not about a war, and thus it will be an approach to the story arc model that Star Trek hasn't tried before. And it should since, at its core, Star Trek should be about peace.
 
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I just want it to be good. The first two years of TOS were pretty great. Much of the stuff that has followed, including Discovery, isn’t.
 
And unfortunately the idea of what people consider good is as open to interpretation as this illustration...

interpretation.gif


... which, in the end, is what it all comes down to. But enough of that and on to the continuation of my movie re-watch, which brings us to Star Trek VI: The Undiscovered Country. Followed by "A Vulcan Hello" and "Battle at the Binary Stars" to see how well TUC rolls into DSC.
 
Pausing right after Azetbur said, "Kirk will pay for my father's death."

I saw TUC the day it came out in theaters when I was 12. I had the novel, the comic, and a Star Trek VI T-shirt. The teaser had me pumped. The trailer had me pumped. I couldn't wait to see this.

First of all, this movie felt like an event, as in An Event. As soon as the opening credits appear, we're greeted with a great soundtrack by Cliff Eidelman. Then we have the explosion of Praxis and the USS Excelsior being caught in the ripple shock wave. After seeing all the TOS movies earlier in 1991, this one in particular stood out to me. When I watched it felt like the Star Trek movies were brought into the '90s. Which was a Big Deal because back then everything was all about how "It's the '90s!"

The look of this film easily fits into the look of Discovery. From the ships, inside and out, to the make-up, to the production design, and the overall aesthetic in general.

If you throw hair on the DSC Klingons, which the second season will do, the Disco Klingons might look a little different, but the difference isn't too too much. I can suspend disbelief. Something more people need to do. The discussion the Klingons have with each other after Azetbur and the Federation President speak is dead-on Discovery. "Attack or be slaves in their world!" Azetbur's response, "War is obsolete as we are in danger of becoming" is the acknowledgment of how their approach must stop. Dying will not preserve their culture. All it will do is ensure it turns into a memory. A self-fulfilling prophecy which she refuses to indulge.

Then there's Kirk. Back in 1991, it seemed too easy to think "Kirk is wrong, he needs to change his attitude about Klingons." Possibly so, but it's a bit more complicated than that. In 1991, the remnants of the Cold War ended and the USSR gave way to Russia and several smaller nations. The cold-conflict that defined the latter-half of the 20th Century was over. The Future seemed exciting. The Future was where the next generation could step in. And Star Trek paralleled this with Star Trek: The Next Generation. TUC showed the first step between how relations between the Federation and the Klingons went from how they were in TOS to how they went in TNG. So back then, the story is heavily tilted toward having Kirk come to embrace the TNG mentality.

In light of DSC and how the Klingons are portrayed there, it's a little bit easier to sympathize with Kirk's resistance toward a future of peace and cooperation with the Klingons. "You don't trust me. I don't blame you. If there is to be a brave new world, our generation is going to have the hardest time living in it."

Moving beyond DSC and into Real Life, we live in such a polarized time that the idea of seeing eye-to-eye with our enemies seems totally foreign. This is in stark contrast to how things were in the early-'90s, as HW Bush's passing away has reminded us as we've looked back to remember him.

EDIT: Picking up where I left off.

"I can't believe I kissed you." "Must've been your life long ambition!" I love William Shatner as an actor. But wow. That line works on two levels. ;) On another note: it's great that they have Iman, David Bowie's wife, as Martia. And watching Kirk, McCoy, and Martia cross the surface of Rura Penthe was a sight to behold. Hiro Narita's cinematography is masterfully accompanied by Cliff Eidelman's score.

The scene between Spock and Valeris in sickbay. "You have to shoot. If you are logical, you have the shoot." "I do not want to." "What you want is irrelevant. What you've chosen is at hand." Kirk interrupts. And then Spock smacks the phaser out of Valeris' hand with stone cold disappointment in her, and Valeris wishing this was someone else. Anyone else. This scene was raw. Moreso than Picard's explosion at Lily tells him to blow up the ship in First Contact. Why? Because the understated-ness is what makes it so effective. The expressions on Spock's and Valeris' faces speaks volumes.

The mind-meld scene. I can't not weigh in on this. I understand that they were trying to show Spock was trying as hard has he could to find out the location of the Peace Conference but the scene would've worked just as well with the swelling of the music, Spock putting both hands on Valeris instead of just one, and let that do the work until Spock concludes she doesn't know. With the way it's played in the actual film, I have to agree with what's been said elsewhere over the years that, at best, it went too far. And, at worst... Let's not go there. Point is the scene became anguishing beyond what was necessary. If it was intended to be disturbing, then I'm sorry to say it was.

Kind of strange to hear Kirk and Spock talk about how old they've become. William Shatner and Leonard Nimoy were 60. And here I am thinking, "That's going to be my age in 20 years!" Strangely, 60 doesn't seem as "old" to me as it used to. To me, I would still think of it as "middle-aged". 70, 80, 90, that's old. 60? Not so much. That's why the whole "they were getting too old!" argument rings false to me. Especially when Patrick Stewart's age wasn't too much different.

Then there's the rush to the finish. The battle between the Enterprise and the Bird-of-Prey with Excelsior as the cavalry. The battle might seem like nothing today but back in 1991, in the theater it was truly epic and even today is still pulse pounding. Less is more. When the torpedo pierces through the Enterprise's hull, that had more impact to me than anything they did to the Enterprise in Kelvin Films where I felt so desensitized to it all. Note to 21st Century film-makers: tone it down a little. Bizarrely it's more effective when things aren't exploding and going ka-blooey every other second. And the end of the battle when the torpedo hits the Bird-of-Prey and Sulu says "Target that explosion and fire!" never gets old. It was truly cathartic when the Bird-of-Prey meets its end. "To be or not to be."

Following that is the mad-dash to stop the assassination of the Federation President. Which had me on the edge of my seat as Kirk leaped to the rescue and the assassins were stopped. The speech at the end, along with the applause felt earned. I don't care if it was schmaltzy. The crew ended its run of movies standing proud.

I don't care what anyone says. It's no Wrath of Khan, but I love this movie. In 1991, you can bet I was thinking, "Why does this have to be the last one?!" But I had an advantage over other fans. I hadn't seen TOS itself yet. Just the movies. So, for me, it wasn't the last one. I had a whole series to look forward to. And look forward to it I did.

On to the first episode of Discovery, while this is all still fresh in my mind!
 
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Commercial break. First off, I totally buy DSC as the opposite end of TUC. Where the Klingons are at in "A Vulcan Hello" is the opposite end of where they end up in The Undiscovered Country. Futhermore, the look of the ships inside and out. I can see this as being the same century as Star Trek VI. I know it irks some people that they bypassed the look of TOS but this is the look I prefer. Looking at this with my own eyes yet again, it looks like Star Trek for the modern era. While not everyone shares this opinion, the world would be a boring place if we all thought the same.

And I love the space shots. I don't get why so many people have a problem with them. The bright reds and browns in the vacuum of space makes the space look warm. Wondrous. A stark contrast to the cold battle that's about to take place.

I love the EVA sequence too. When Burnham first encounters the Klingon, it's the first time -- other than TMP -- that the Klingons ever seemed truly alien and I would say even moreso here.

It's really too bad we spend so little time on the Shenzhou. I like the crew chemistry. Everyone gets along, even though Saru wishes Burnham would listen to her more. And I like the idea that this is a crew that's known each other for years and not just meeting with each other for the first time.

To reinforce the idea that Georgiou is the Picard of her time, when Burnham goes into Georgiou's ready room, she's listening to classical music. Earlier, when Georgiou and Burnham are on the planet, Georgiou mentions to Burnham (paraphrasing), "Let's talk about your first command." Which is how I know she'll get one eventually. When the music stops, she'll be in command of Discovery. "You don't know!", you might say. But that's not the case. I do know. That's the rough, broad outline of her narrative arc. The details are all that need to be filled in and the journey along the way to be discovered.
 
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then Spock smacks the phaser of Valeris' hand with stone cold disappointment in her, and Valeris wishing this was someone else.

This is such an awesome scene, the way Nimoy Spocks anger with just his eyebrows is astounding. All those people who think spock was never emotional after 'Where no one has gone before' seem to forget that Spock once slapped a phaser out of Samantha's hands.
 
This is such an awesome scene, the way Nimoy Spocks anger with just his eyebrows is astounding. All those people who think spock was never emotional after 'Where no one has gone before' seem to forget that Spock once slapped a phaser out of Samantha's hands.

They forget a whole lot of things, including at least a dozen or so scenes with Spock literally smiling, with no interference from any kind of mind-altering circumstances.
 
Swinging back around soon to see how late-DS9 rolls into DSC. Being arc-based, proto-Prestige TV, having a darker tone than the Trek norm, etc. I think DSC is really the spiritual successor to DS9, if not the literal one. If DSC S2 does delve into religion and spirituality, it'll drive the point further home.

I'll do that in a separate thread because there's so much more material. With the TOS Movies, the only ones that mattered in relation to DSC were TMP, TWOK, and TUC.
 
Am three quarters through my first rewatch now in anticipation of season 2. I'm trying to be as fair as I can be here, but you know, at the end of the day, it's just really really really....depressing! Everyone hating on everyone else. The fights.The verbal feuds. People in pain. People in misery. The long drawn out writing grasping for a profundity that simply isn't there most of the time, so it just falls back on making everything extra horrible. Like that is the same thing. Even the sets and lighting seem designed to put you on a downer.

It's like somebody looked at the vapid high gloss first TOS movie and thought that was totally the way to go for relaunching the franchise. I'm not the ultimate authority on what good Star Trek should be, but I'm pretty sure it shouldn't be this.
 
Maybe I'm wrong, but that PADD appears to be a new design.


That giant ketchup bottle. Well I'm assuming that's what it is.
You'd think the ketchup would just be replicated on the burger.
two things:

the discovery PADDs are these hideous, asymmetrical things...
8rzdQSg.jpg

which has me wondering who drives these designs when they're clearly capable of creating props that look better and fit better into established star trek aesthetics.

and i'm going with that's not ketchup, it's a bloody mary.
 
Spoiler: Number 1 is shoving the padd away because she can't bear to look at Discovery's Enterprise design while she's eating.
 
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