The Undiscovered Country

[fireproof78]

You’re trying to excuse it in this post where you say you’re not excusing it. “It’s a very tense and grim situation.”

Comes down to personal bias. It's why I'm more lenient on TUC than any of the TNG films. I like it better.

But the same issues can be found across Trek. One gets rationalized; the other is considered an abomination *

*or whatever descriptor you want.

 

[BillJ]

I am saying (though you seem incapable of grasping) that the Abrams movie is far more sinful and retrograde than anything seen in Star Trek before.

I know exactly what you are saying, I disagree.

All you are doing is cherry-picking from past films (and cherry-picking my posts) in order to play "Gotcha!"

No, I'm pointing out that you may not be remembering clearly the Star Trek you've seen prior to the Abrams films. Because every "crime" you mention is in abundance in past Trek.

 

[fireproof78]

, I'm pointing out that you may not be remembering clearly the Star Trek you've seen prior to the Abrams films. Because every "crime" you mention is in abundance in past Trek.

Precisely so.

Or, to tie back to an earlier point I was making, it's like how we are expected to ignore Kor's treatment of the Organians to see him as a hero in DS9.

 

[BillJ]

Or, to tie back to an earlier point I was making, it's like how we are expected to ignore Kor's treatment of the Organians to see him as a hero in DS9.

That's different. For no discernible reason.

 

[fireproof78]

That's different. For no discernible reason.

Well, clearly that's because...

 

[Charles Phipps]

I would also disagree because, hothead as Kirk is, Nero has committed the greatest act of genocide in Alpha Quadrant history and carries out intent to do more.

His death is preventative and in the middle of a combat situation.

 

[Cryogenic]

I would also disagree because, hothead as Kirk is, Nero has committed the greatest act of genocide in Alpha Quadrant history and carries out intent to do more.

His death is preventative and in the middle of a combat situation.

I'd just like to point out that the older Spock, in grief for his planet, doesn't describe Nero with any bloodlust, but instead calls him "a particularly troubled Romulan". This at least suggests a degree of compassion and understanding completely alien to the young crew of the Enterprise, whom Spock is (bizarrely) encouraging the hotheaded Kirk to beat into shape and take command of. Because it's Kirk and Spock's "destiny" to be together or something.

 

[fireproof78]

Spock has always believed in destiny.

 

[BillJ]

This at least suggests a degree of compassion and understanding...

Or it suggests he’s a 150+ year old man with a deeper understanding of life, the universe and everything compared to his 30 year old self of 2256.

 

[Cryogenic]

Or it suggests he’s a 150+ year old man with a deeper understanding of life, the universe and everything compared to his 30 year old self of 2256.

He has a deeper understanding next to his younger, impetuous, barely-stable self, sure. Although, in his senility, he apparently never thought to go to that outpost and warn anyone about Nero and the threat to Vulcan.

 

[fireproof78]

Or it suggests he’s a 150+ year old man with a deeper understanding of life, the universe and everything compared to his 30 year old self of 2256.

That is the point of the movie yes.

 

[NCC-73515]

I remember how relieved I was when Kirk offered to help Nero at the end. It made me think "Ah, it is Star Trek."

 

[Charles Phipps]

I'd just like to point out that the older Spock, in grief for his planet, doesn't describe Nero with any bloodlust, but instead calls him "a particularly troubled Romulan". This at least suggests a degree of compassion and understanding completely alien to the young crew of the Enterprise, whom Spock is (bizarrely) encouraging the hotheaded Kirk to beat into shape and take command of. Because it's Kirk and Spock's "destiny" to be together or something.

Spock is indeed a selfless and compassionate follower of Surak's path. However actions speak very loudly and Nero's plans are continuous genocide of planet after planet so I think that goes beyond bloodlust. It's just Spock would call that "troubled."

Spock has always believed in destiny.

I feel Vulcans are best thought of as taking a mystical view of science.

Spock would explain at length block time and the idea of Kirk, Spock, and so on being people that are meant to be on a specific lifepath based on the flow of circumstances of biology and choices that have already happened in a flat view of casualty. Then he'd say, "Which some people call destiny."

 

[Cryogenic]

I remember how relieved I was when Kirk offered to help Nero at the end. It made me think "Ah, it is Star Trek."

True. It seems to go a "Star Trek" path for a moment, but then reverts to blockbuster type a moment later. And yes, other installments haven't always done great on this front, either. I was just re-watching some of Nemesis on YouTube earlier. Picard ramming Shinzon's ship? How many people in the saucer section did you potentially just kill there, Jean-Luc? I am not saying ST 09 is alone in doing irresponsible things. But it does seem to offend the most often. Perhaps the slick presentation just makes it hard to parse out all the sins.

Spock is indeed a selfless and compassionate follower of Surak's path. However actions speak very loudly and Nero's plans are continuous genocide of planet after planet so I think that goes beyond bloodlust. It's just Spock would call that "troubled."

Sure. I get that it's (probably) meant to be comical understatement on his part, yet consistent with a broader philosophy he holds to. But he really does nothing to stop Nero himself, nor even bothers to warn the Federation of what is about to happen (when he is first stranded on Delta Vega), yet insists that Kirk must somehow wrest control of the Enterprise from his younger, alternate-universe self once all the damage is done. I guess, on some level, they were putting older Spock in the older "Obi-Wan Kenobi" role from the Original Trilogy. Arguably, Star Wars did a better job.

I feel Vulcans are best thought of as taking a mystical view of science.

Spock would explain at length block time and the idea of Kirk, Spock, and so on being people that are meant to be on a specific lifepath based on the flow of circumstances of biology and choices that have already happened in a flat view of casualty. Then he'd say, "Which some people call destiny."

I like your reading. It might somehow even be true. They were smart to use older Spock instead of older Kirk. However, this "alternate universe" that older Spock is dumped into is somehow a lot louder, dumber, and coarser than the one he came from. He even gets wrong the chronology of the Enterprise. He is surprised to learn that Kirk isn't the captain, but only because he's going off his own timeline. However, back in his timeline, the Enterprise would have been under the command of either Robert April or Christopher Pike. Spock even served under the latter. Given this error, and the fact he doesn't think to warn the Federation of Nero's upcoming attack, despite knowing of an outpost nearby, I think a fan could be forgiven for looking upon Spock's remarks to Kirk as the ravings of a senile crank.

 

[Charles Phipps]

I like your reading. It might somehow even be true. They were smart to use older Spock instead of older Kirk. However, this "alternate universe" that older Spock is dumped into is somehow a lot louder, dumber, and coarser than the one he came from. He even gets wrong the chronology of the Enterprise. He is surprised to learn that Kirk isn't the captain, but only because he's going off his own timeline. However, back in his timeline, the Enterprise would have been under the command of either Robert April or Christopher Pike. Spock even served under the latter. Given this error, and the fact he doesn't think to warn the Federation of Nero's upcoming attack, despite knowing of an outpost nearby, I think a fan could be forgiven for looking upon Spock's remarks to Kirk as the ravings of a senile crank.

I think Spock, without his usual dignity, is well aware he's trying to put together a completely shattered system and is taking advantage of limited knowledge as well as resources. Vulcan being destroyed obviously borks the timeline to no end. However, in his situation, he has a younger version of Kirk and an Enterprise so he figures that Kirk is probably the right man for the job as while he doesn't know his own capacities 100%, he suspects that Younger Spock is presently unfit for command and Nero has to be stopped.

He turns out to be right as for all of Young Kirk's many flaws, they did need to take down Nero.

In simple terms, he's making do with stone knives and bear skins.

 

[Cryogenic]

I think Spock, without his usual dignity, is well aware he's trying to put together a completely shattered system and is taking advantage of limited knowledge as well as resources. Vulcan being changed obviously borks the timeline to no end. However, in his situation, he has a younger version of Kirk and an Enterprise so he figures that Kirk is probably the right man for the job as while he doesn't know his own capacities 100%, he suspects that Younger Spock is presently unfit for command and Nero has to be stopped.

He turns out to be right as for all of Young Kirk's many flaws, they did need to take down Nero.

You offer a generous and reasonable reading. To me, however, it still doesn't explain why Spock waits around like a helpless infant in the cave. He clearly had the knowledge and the means to get to that outpost. But he waits in the cave and only heads off after Kirk arrives. Indeed, he is clearly surprised when Kirk improbably shows up, right where he's hiding, miles from civilisation. So what was his plan before then? Did he have one? He's remarkably passive. Only once Kirk shows up does he suddenly change gears and insist that Kirk must return to the Enterprise and overthrow his younger self. The chances of Kirk even doing that are slim. If Spock threw him off the ship once already, what's to stop him doing it again, or chucking him in the brig? Older Spock seems very addled to me.

 

[Charles Phipps]

To be fair, Spock could have warned Starfleet. It's just Nero wiped out Starfleet.

Or maybe he was on his way to the facility by the time he found Kirk.

But yes, sometimes plot hole exist.

 

[fireproof78]

I remember how relieved I was when Kirk offered to help Nero at the end. It made me think "Ah, it is Star Trek."

Indeed, quite so-it is Star Trek. To my mind, TUC and ST 09 are quintessentially Star Trek. Both are films about Kirk and Spock discovering a part of themselves. In TUC it is a rediscovery of their "best destiny" (as Spock put it) and not being "too old." In ST 09 it is actually finding what that destiny actually is.

Kelvin Kirk is going through an identity crisis-the only destiny he knows takes shape of his dead father the hero. He doesn't know what made his dad a hero-just that he is one and Kirk never measures up. So, he rebels.

Spock, likewise, is still struggling with his own rebellion against the system, trying to forge his own destiny. Unfortunately, this discovery comes at painful cost. And the need for father figures to step in to give shape to that best destiny.

tl: dr-TUC and 09 are the best Trek films for me. Warts and all.

 

[Cryogenic]

To be fair, Spock could have warned Starfleet. It's just Nero wiped out Starfleet.

Or maybe he was on his way to the facility by the time he found Kirk.

But yes, sometimes plot hole exist.

Nero wiped out Starfleet? When?

Spock had ample opportunity to get the word out. He clearly does nothing.

Plot holes undermine movies and weaken lateral interpretations when they are that blatant.

 

[fireproof78]

Given the wildlife I'm uncertain that Spock could have survived such a journey alone.