The Undiscovered Country

[Lord Garth]

Cryogenic is stating that Kirk opening fire on the Narada equals genocide.

There is also the interpretation that Kirk and Sulu smirk and are happy to be firing on the Narada. I personally don't see that watching the clip but I'm biased so what do I know?

Oh. So it's exactly what I thought. Okay, just double-checking.

Well... I don't see it either. And I'm definitely not biased when it comes to the Kelvin Films. I'm neither for nor against them. I think he's either reading into what's not there or he's just outright twisting what he saw into ribbons.

And what does this have to do with TUC besides nothing?

 

[fireproof78]

And what does this have to do with TUC besides nothing?

Because TWOK came up.

 

[BillJ]

Am I to believe Cryogenic is backing Nero? Quick answer. I'm not reading the entirety of his posts.

I'm not sure if he knows. Kinda been all over the place.

 

[JonnyQuest037]

Could you please move this tiresome debate about ST09 into its own thread on the correct board so that this thread can get back to something approaching the topic?

 

[Peach Wookiee]

Okay, guys, this thread was about Star Trek VI, correct?
While I'm interested in how this evolved into a discussion about genocide in the Trekverse, I must remind all of you that you do not attack the poster. Deal with the posting. I'm seeing some of you get dangerously close to personal attacks, and I want all of you to stand down. Cryogenic, you need to watch yourself. I am inclined to let this thread remain open, but if any of you get personal and start flaming, I'm closing this. Do I make myself clear? Good.
If y'all want to debate genocide in Star Trek (2009) and beyond, please take it to Kelvinverse Trek Movies down the hall.

 

[Cryogenic]

I'm seeing some of you get dangerously close to personal attacks, and I want all of you to stand down. Cryogenic, you need to watch yourself.

I need to watch myself...? Okay. From my own conduct, or the half-dozen ST 09 fans that emerged out of nowhere, and have tried bullying me (a lone dissident) out of my opinion? Because that's pretty damn ugly, and it's something I thought had gone away since 2009, but seems to be as strong as ever.

Also, while I got stuck in (I don't mind defending my opinion), I wasn't the one that brought the Abrams film up, so I'd like that to be recognised. I was originally making a broader comment about the ST movies as a whole. When the tangent developed, I simply went with it.

Anyway, so noted.

 

[Tenacity]

Because TWOK came up.

Picard attended Sarek's sons wedding.

I wonder if Spock's bride was named T'Wok?

 

[NCC-73515]

the half-dozen ST 09 fans that emerged out of nowhere, and have tried bullying me (a lone dissident) out of my opinion

Some of us can be pretty strange when they disagree with someone, but actual bullying is very rare.
With so many personal opinions floating around about pretty much every aspect of every show, or even on an episode by episode level, there will always be people who strongly disagree.

 

[Cryogenic]

Some of us can be pretty strange when they disagree with someone, but actual bullying is very rare.
With so many personal opinions floating around about pretty much every aspect of every show, or even on an episode by episode level, there will always be people who strongly disagree.

Fair comment. Sometimes, in discussion spaces like these, I think it's more like the concept of temperature: not a real, discrete thing (i.e., not anything any one person is setting out to do), so much as the collective movement of atoms (i.e., the combined effect of the behaviour of many individuals).

Nevertheless, one person was even bragging, "I didn't read that guy's posts. Can someone summarise?" Which is like them talking about someone else in a room as if they're not even there. On some level, there was an attempt to de-legitimise my opinion.

In psychology, there is also the well-known concept of diffusion of responsibility (another temperature analogy!) -- i.e., no one need be bullying or feel responsible if everyone is there sharing the burden.

And I do feel there is an air of defensiveness toward the first Abrams movie that none of the other movies provoke (save, maybe, TWOK). I don't know what it is, but it has been there since the movie came out, and it seems to be continuing uninterrupted. Before I reactivated my account a week ago, I hadn't posted on The Trek BBS in seven years, and I don't think I've discussed ST 09 here in a decade! And yet, as soon as I chastise it, look what happens...

 

[Peach Wookiee]

I think it's because you argued that Captain Kirk committed genocide by taking out the Narada. I've thought of his opening fire is more of a mercy killing than anything. Nero said he'd rather die in agony than accept help from the Enterprise. But letting the ship just tear itself apart isn't exactly merciful.

 

[Cryogenic]

I think it's because you argued that Captain Kirk committed genocide by taking out the Narada. I've thought of his opening fire is more of a mercy killing than anything. Nero said he'd rather die in agony than accept help from the Enterprise. But letting the ship just tear itself apart isn't exactly merciful.

I know, to be fair, you wanted this topic to return to TUC, which I appreciate, but...

What Kirk does fits the definition of genocide. Not even the definition that I provided, but that which NCC-73515 did on the previous page. I think some people get confused and conflate the word's meaning with "total obliteration of a race". It doesn't have to mean that. A partial murder of a race or group still counts. The Romulans aboard the Narada are clearly a race of people, and from the standpoint of the movie's time-setting, pretty unique, since they are from the future. Therefore, Kirk is actively targeting and wiping out a whole group, as small as it is next to the fuller stock of 24th Century Romulans they come from.

I suppose you could interpret it as a mercy killing. But that's evidently not what's on the mind of Spock or Sulu, and I don't know why it would be on Kirk's, either. Nero may be something of a mad dog, and he and his crew may have committed genocide themselves, but it's no excuse for Kirk's actions. It would have been more poetic to leave Nero to his fate -- after all, that is what he wanted. In fact, given that he says he would "rather die in agony than accept assistance from you", it seems like Kirk believes he is helping him have an agonising death, with his smarmy "You got it", right before ordering Sulu to hit Nero and ship "with everything" they have.

Letting the ship tear itself apart isn't merciful, no. But helping it to its death? Moreover, Kirk says just seconds before he is willing to provide help -- so presumably, he could do something other than blow them all to bits. Since people were fond of throwing earlier bits of Star Trek at me, and one of the examples was Kirk bitterly kicking Kruge to his death in ST III, I'd like to point out that Kirk does better with his second-in-command. That guy openly says, "I do not deserve to live", and Kirk misleads him for a second, only to deliberately not grant him his wish: "Fine, I'll kill you later." But not ST 09 Kirk. He -- along with Spock and Sulu -- was perfectly happy to eliminate everyone on that ship. No mercy.

 

[Lord Garth]

Because TWOK came up.

Other than it being directed by Nick Meyer (you can immediately tell his style) and Valeris really just being another Saavik, I don't see much of TWOK in TUC.

One is a revenge story, the other is a political thriller. One is about Kirk facing middle-age, the other is about Kirk facing retirement. One is about changes in Kirk's personal life, the other is about changes in the entire Quadrant. So much so that I consider it to be the Turning Point of Star Trek in general. When, in-universe, "TOS" Trek started the transition toward becoming "TNG" Trek.

 

[dupersuper]

I
Well, it was half-changed in ST V -- Sybok might have been a tad crazed, but he wasn't insane or bloodthirsty. Since then, however, every Trek antagonist has basically been a vainglorious, heartless villain that it is impossible to dissuade or reason with. In a way, that makes every ST film, barring TMP and TFF, the antithesis of Star Trek (Star Trek at its smartest, anyway)

And The Voyage Home...

 

[Cryogenic]

And The Voyage Home...

Sort of.

It's a little hard for them to reason with that space probe, isn't it?

But good catch. I am happy to make an exception, of sorts, for TVH. I say "of sorts", however, because the other antagonists alluded to in TMP and TFF (V'Ger and Sybok) are at least amenable to communication. It is only possible to placate the mysterious probe in TVH once the whales are brought back. It is otherwise completely inscrutable. The probe in TVH is really just a MacGuffin. Still, yeah, the movie avoids going down the more obvious route of a bad, single-minded villain in the other ten or however-many films.

 

[BillJ]

I hadn't posted on The Trek BBS in seven years, and I don't think I've discussed ST 09 here in a decade! And yet, as soon as I chastise it, look what happens...

If you had “criticized” any part of the franchise, there would’ve been defenders to comment on your thoughts. Kinda what fans do.

 

[Tenacity]

and one of the examples was Kirk bitterly kicking Kruge to his death

To be fair, after a spirited fight, Kruge was defeated and hanging from the edge of a cliff. In typical Kirk fashion Kirk stopped fighting and offered mercy to his opponent.

Kirk only killed Kurge after Kurge tried to continue the fight. I saw no bitterness on Kirk's part, exasperation would be more accurate.

 

[BillJ]

To be fair, after a spirited fight, Kruge was defeated and hanging from the edge of a cliff. In typical Kirk fashion Kirk stopped fighting and offered mercy to his opponent.

Kirk only killed Kurge after Kurge tried to continue the fight. I saw no bitterness on Kirk's part, exasperation would be more accurate.

That was after he executed Kruge’s crew with a false surrender.

 

[fireproof78]

And I do feel there is an air of defensiveness toward the first Abrams movie that none of the other movies provoke (save, maybe, TWOK). I don't know what it is, but it has been there since the movie came out, and it seems to be continuing uninterrupted. Before I reactivated my account a week ago, I hadn't posted on The Trek BBS in seven years, and I don't think I've discussed ST 09 here in a decade! And yet, as soon as I chastise it, look what happens...

Simple. No other Trek film has to have it's Trek card status reassured. The Kelvin films do and get treated poorly and as lesser class of Trek than others. Calling them "filth" is just one example of it. Saying that Abrams committed "blasphemy" (not here-please note this is just my experience) against Trek is another.

I don't like a lot of Trek films but not one would I consider "lesser" or "filth" in the Star Trek world. Just different interpretations of the material.

When they stop getting treated like garbage I'll stop defending them. Pure and simple.

To be fair, after a spirited fight, Kruge was defeated and hanging from the edge of a cliff. In typical Kirk fashion Kirk stopped fighting and offered mercy to his opponent.

Kirk only killed Kurge after Kurge tried to continue the fight. I saw no bitterness on Kirk's part, exasperation would be more accurate.

Indeed, yes. And I would say that is similar in 09 as well. I see no joy in Kirk's actions.

That was after he executed Kruge’s crew with a false surrender.

Which is apparently OK...

What Kirk does fits the definition of genocide. Not even the definition that I provided, but that which NCC-73515 did on the previous page. I think some people get confused and conflate the word's meaning with "total obliteration of a race". It doesn't have to mean that. A partial murder of a race or group still counts. The Romulans aboard the Narada are clearly a race of people, and from the standpoint of the movie's time-setting, pretty unique, since they are from the future. Therefore, Kirk is actively targeting and wiping out a whole group, as small as it is next to the fuller stock of 24th Century Romulans they come from.

The call out Kirk in TSFS because that's what he did to Kruge's crew.

 

[BillJ]

Which is apparently OK...

Seems like Starfleet and the Federation often turn their eyes the other way where war crimes are concerned. Sisko poisoned a civilian colony.

 

[Smellmet]

Sort of.

It's a little hard for them to reason with that space probe, isn't it?

I would say it's equally hard to reason with someone who has just committed actual genocide on a massive scale and is then refusing help.

Fuck Nero and his gang. They deserved everything they got. It was a war situation and they are war criminals who were still an active threat.