Is it more important to you that Trek deepens lore, or explores new worlds?

[at Quark's]

I think we need to do both! Expore and deepen lore at the same time! So, let them explore new star systems that contain planets with never-before-heard-of species that somehow still have all kinds of mysterious connections to our past (or that of familiar species), and ....

oh wait, never mind.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

I'd love if, even just for a series (hell even just for one season of a show), they left the Klingons alone.

Oh God, yes. Preferably for one whole show.

And... I just realized that these hopes are unrealistic for PIC. Because if their goal is to have all the legacy characters appear, then that will include Worf, and he is usually introduced because something something The Klingons. (Which is ridiculous in itself, he is a Starfleet officer, a (bad) father, a friend... There would be other ways to include him.)

 

[Xhiandra]

While there should be a balance, lately there has been too much retreading of the same Alien species, which leads both to small universe syndrome and unnecessary retcons.

Of the major species:

- TOS brought in Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Andorrians, Orions and Tellarites
- TNG brought in Ferengi, the Borg, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trills, Androids and Betazoids
- DS9 brought in the Breen, Jem'hadar, Vorta, Changelings
- VOY had a slew of VOY-only species: Ocampa, Kazons (though they're Klingon ersatz, tbh), Undine, Hirogen, Vaaudwaur (underused), Voth (underused), Talaxians (overused everytime Neelix is on screen), Captain Planet Villains (overused in that they were an incredibly dumb idea), space George Constanza, Potatomen, ... though not all of those are major.
- ENT had the Suliban, Xindi and Sphere builders
- DSC mostly retreads Klingons and Vulcans
- PIC mostly retreads Romulans and Androids

 

[valkyrie013]

Have a healthy mixture sometimes, Take known speices and flesh them out a bit more like the Tellerites, shown already but not much known.
Have new species as needed for whatever story they come up with, even one time species like The Enterprise goes to planet X for that episode, tells a story, then leaves. If the aliens were popular may get a revist or seen again.

 

[Lord Garth]

While there should be a balance, lately there has been too much retreading of the same Alien species, which leads both to small universe syndrome and unnecessary retcons.

Of the major species:

- TOS brought in Vulcans, Klingons, Romulans, Tholians, Andorrians, Orions and Tellarites
- TNG brought in Ferengi, the Borg, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trills, Androids and Betazoids
- DS9 brought in the Breen, Jem'hadar, Vorta, Changelings
- VOY had a slew of VOY-only species: Ocampa, Kazons (though they're Klingon ersatz, tbh), Undine, Hirogen, Vaaudwaur (underused), Voth (underused), Talaxians (overused everytime Neelix is on screen), Captain Planet Villains (overused in that they were an incredibly dumb idea), space George Constanza, Potatomen, ... though not all of those are major.
- ENT had the Suliban, Xindi and Sphere builders
- DSC mostly retreads Klingons and Vulcans
- PIC mostly retreads Romulans and Androids

DSC had Kelpians, Bu'al, the JahSepp (a species in the Mycellial Network), and the V'Draysh have been foreshadowed. None of which I consider minor to the series.

You're welcome.

 

[eschaton]

I can see an argument why "Kurtzman Trek" needs to bathe in nostalgia/existing lore to a greater degree than earlier series. This is because the style of storytelling used is very different from earlier Trek when it comes to everything from shot composition to editing to story structure. Kinda the inverse of The Orville, which is very recognizably structured like Star Trek even though it's not canonical. I mean, I remember in Discovery's first season a lot of people noted that if you just changed a handful of in-story references (change the bald Klingons to have a different name, etc) you wouldn't be able to tell it was a Trek show - canon was its only real connection. I think the EPs heard this complaint, which is why the amount of memberberries has gone up over time.

 

[Lord Garth]

I can see an argument why "Kurtzman Trek" needs to bathe in nostalgia/existing lore to a greater degree than earlier series.

I think people overuse the word "nostalgia" and don't really know what it means. A yearning to go back to the way things were. If things were "the way they were", you wouldn't have people freaking out about the changes they made to pre-existing things like the Klingons or the Enterprise. They would be exactly as they remembered them from before. They're not.

You wouldn't have people screaming "What have they done to Picard?!" or "What have they done to Seven?!"

But yes, the more we get to know about Star Trek's galaxy, the more we get to know about the "neighborhood" Earth is in, the less new species we'll meet as we go along. Or the question will be "Why didn't they run into them before?" Given how entrenched the Ferengi seem to be, it's hard to believe the Federation only made first known contact with them in TNG Season 1.

 

[eschaton]

I think people overuse the word "nostalgia" and don't really know what it means. A yearning to go back to the way things were. If things were "the way they were", you wouldn't have people freaking out about the changes they made to pre-existing things like the Klingons or the Enterprise. They would be exactly as they remembered them from before. They're not.

You wouldn't have people screaming "What have they done to Picard?!" or "What have they done to Seven?!"

But yes, the more we get to know about Star Trek's galaxy, the more we get to know about the "neighborhood" Earth is in, the less new species we'll meet as we go along. Or the question will be "Why didn't they run into them before?" Given how entrenched the Ferengi seem to be, it's hard to believe the Federation only made first known contact with them in TNG Season 1.

My point is just that Kurtzman Trek seems to have pivoted more as time went on to bringing in existing elements of Trek. Season 2 of Discovery attempted to be a bit more optimistic, brought in Pike and Spock, and took on more of a semi-episodic structure. The Picard show even existing is an admittance by CBS that fans really want to see the old characters again. And as I said upthread, the third season of Discovery - even though it is going into the far future - has so far featured races very familiar to us, suggesting they're looking to have "existing races used differently" rather than using the far future as a tabula rasa. Strange New World seems like it will be more of a retread in terms of the Trek format (content remains to be seen) and what little we have seen of Lower Decks suggests that they have decided at least in terms of visuals to hew very closely to what we've seen before.

Again, if you're looking at novel types of storytelling within the Trekverse, it just makes sense to use familiar elements. I think a Kurtzman Trek version of Voyager just wouldn't work because it's both leaving the familiar setting and the familiar type of storytelling behind.

 

[JesterFace]

Both are needed to create a nice space adventure series.

 

[Vger23]

Someone mentioned earlier in the thread that STAR TREK is not about exploration.

This is absolutely false.

It is about the exploration of ourselves, as well as exploring space. While actually exploring space was not done as much as one might think with a starship, EVERY episode explored something about someone.

Watching Kira grow from an angry resistance fighter to a mature leader.

Watching Picard wrestle with various moral and ethical scenarios.

Watching Seven of Nine slowly regain parts of her humanity that was stolen from her as a child.

Watching Tom Paris go from galactic playboy to a responsible husband and father.

Watching Spock try to balance logic against his human half.

Watching Archer go from wide eyed explorer to a battle tested force for bringing races together.

Watching Data explore various facets of humanity in his attempt to be more human himself.

There's no shortage of stories that explore the hearts and minds of people. Exploration means more than just discovering what's just past the next hill or star. It's about finding out what it means to exist.

If you're talking about me...I certainly didn't mean "Star Trek isn't about exploration in its many forms, including the exploration of the human condition".....but I imagine you know that and you're just firing for effect.

Because I think I made my post pretty clear that I was talking about "the missions" and that most of those missions were not space exploration.

And if it's "exploration of the self / human condition"....I'd say there's no lack of that in DSC or PIC.

 

[Vger23]

Honestly, I'd rather have there be DEPTH to things than BREADTH.

Earlier Star Trek shows, mostly had the recurring aliens as "heavies" (Romulans, Klingons, Cardassians) but very rarely do we meet a race or galactic government of some sort that we get deeply into. DS9 is the noteworthy exception (Bajorans, Dominion, etc) and I think it worked to great effect. But, for the most part, it's "we met the BlibbetyBlahs this week and they were a fascinating mono-culture that we'll never see again. Warp Five to our next assignment, Number One!"

I think it would be cool to explore one new race or civilization but over the course of an arc or season. I think about something like the TrekLit anthology "Mere Anarchy" which covered the decimation of a planet by a rouge pulsar (or something). It was a drawn out arc that was definitely a Star Trek story, but it also had a very nice exploration of the culture and nature of the aliens who lived on that ill-fated world.

I'd love to see SNW do something like that, for example....a race that is newly discovered and poses some challenge that needs to be worked out over the course of a 12 episode season. You can still have your episodic adventures....but tie it all in to this overarching race that we explore and discover more about.

That way....you're broadening the "exploring new things" dimension while at the same time, adding depth to the franchise by really diving in and developing this new species or group.

IDK. I don't really care as long as it's fun to watch and talk about.

 

[fireproof78]

TNG brought in Ferengi, the Borg, Bajorans, Cardassians, Trills, Androids and Betazoids

And yet overemphasized the Klingons to the point of near ridiculousness. The Cardassians and the Bajorans did well but were expanded upon in DS9.

DSC has brought in new aliens as well, specifically in Saru. So, I don't think the comparison adds up.

 

[The Wormhole]

If I'm remembering right: Insurrection, Into Darkness, and Beyond. So two out of three of those were the "evil, dreaded" Abrams Films.

I was actually thinking TWOK (the Reliant looking for a suitable Genesis test site), TSFS (the Grissom checking out the Genesis planet) and STID (the opening sequence. I guess Insurrection could count, although the Starfleet team doing the exploring there had an ulterior motive. Beyond, I can't remember, were they actually making contact with the aliens at the start or trying to open diplomatic relations? If the former, I guess that would be exploration, if the latter, that implies following up on someone else's exploration.

I think it would be cool to explore one new race or civilization but over the course of an arc or season.

Which is something I was thinking of earlier when I commented about doing a show about one of the ships that does the check-ups on the planets the front line explorers check out first, like Lower Decks but done seriously. While the front line explorers go to the planets, have their adventure and take off for another planet and adventure next week, have a show about the ships that go back and spend an extended length of time formalizing relations with the indigenous race and doing a more extensive study and exploration of the planet.

In fact it could be an interesting way to launch such a spin-off through the SNW series. Have an episode of SNW where Pike and the Enterprise go to the planet, have their adventure for the week and take off again, then have the spin-off series about the follow-up ship going to that planet for their season's arc.

 

[Sci]

I think something to bear in mind is that serialized storytelling allows for greater depth in the writing, but the trade-off is that it is the natural of serialization that you're dealing with roughly the same set of cultures interacting with each-other because the stories you end up telling are stories about lasting consequences. It's hard to do serialized storytelling, with its superior quality, while also introducing a new setting and new culture that you barely scratch the surface of, every week.

 

[STEPhon IT]

Regardless, I'm curious what's more important for you guys. Do you think Trek is better as a framework to examine different sorts of stories? Or do you prefer finding out more about the already established universe? Hell, maybe it's something else entirely - like you're one of those nerds who cares about the ships or something. I'm all ears.

Too many times Hollywood falls into "more of same scenario" when it comes to established franchises and instead of expanding an established race of characters they re-write them and force their retcons into the franchises core. When they do this, they tend to forget they're making the Star Trek universe a lot smaller than larger. TNG, DS9 when they first started out did it right and honored TOS; the impression was the worlds the particular crew was exploring was far away from the aliens races we once knew. We would see them from time to time, but they were moving away from them but when critiques are loud and hard hitting from the fans of a few; the producers fold and bring the old gang back to shit up the joint! I don't particularly like those silly alien mapping schemes from the fans turn pro because I don't believe it accurately depict the distances of those established races; I feel the depictions should be spread apart a lot wider and if that can't be done, then don't do it at all, allow the fans to use their imaginations of how far or closer they are.

It's very possible the retcons done on the established aliens were originally conceived as new alien characters but as a preemptive strike the producers ordered the ideas to be incorporated since they were slight similarities. In a way to avoid the criticisms, but then they're getting criticisms from all corners of the spectrum. For me, just tell the stories the writers need to tell without ruining what has already been done and better IMO, I don't need a 10 part movie serial about Androids, Romulans, Klingons, Section 31, Mirror Universes, Borg, Spock and his history and escapades, just create a new race of beings Trek has never seen before and utilize those valued 10 episodes and go to the wazoo with it. It could be Starfleet or an organization related to, a special group of people who'll need to use their expertise to explore the unknown which is bound for adventure. I think a concept like that would be more open for interesting conversation than the same old - same old stuff where Hollywood continues to get the universe completely wrong.

 

[Lord Garth]

I was actually thinking TWOK (the Reliant looking for a suitable Genesis test site), TSFS (the Grissom checking out the Genesis planet) and STID (the opening sequence. I guess Insurrection could count, although the Starfleet team doing the exploring there had an ulterior motive. Beyond, I can't remember, were they actually making contact with the aliens at the start or trying to open diplomatic relations? If the former, I guess that would be exploration, if the latter, that implies following up on someone else's exploration.

With Insurrection, I was thinking of those aliens they were trying to start diplomatic relations with. But you're right, that would be someone else's exploration.

With Beyond, I was thinking of those little aliens attacking Kirk at the beginning of the film, which I'm guessing was a tip of the hat to Gulliver's Travels being one of Star Trek's inspirations.

 

[The Wormhole]

With Insurrection, I was thinking of those aliens they were trying to start diplomatic relations with.

Oh, you mean the ones attending the ceremony on the Enterprise at the beginning? IIRC, they weren't starting diplomatic relations with them, but rather actually accepting them as members of the Federation. Indeed, it was in the turbolift on the way to the ceremony that Picard laments over the fact they don't do any exploration anymore.

 

[1001001]

But he got that cool beaded headdress, so it all evened out.

 

[BillJ]

But he got that cool beaded headdress, so it all evened out.

I bet he wears that when he's having sex.

 

[Sci]

Oh, you mean the ones attending the ceremony on the Enterprise at the beginning? IIRC, they weren't starting diplomatic relations with them, but rather actually accepting them as members of the Federation. Indeed, it was in the turbolift on the way to the ceremony that Picard laments over the fact they don't do any exploration anymore.

Pedantic side-note: The Evora weren't being accepted as Members of the Federation (I'm pretty sure that kind of ceremony would require the Federation President and Cabinet). The dialogue indicates that the ceremony was for the Evora becoming protectorates of the Federation. A protectorate is a small state that allows itself to fall under the formal protection of a more powerful state; in real life it is usually a form of colonial oppression.

 

[The Wormhole]

I'm pretty sure that kind of ceremony would require the Federation President and Cabinet

You'd think so. Although when Bajor was about to join the Federation on DS9, neither the Federation President or the Bajoran First Minister were in attendance. The whole thing seemed to be handled by a Starfleet Admiral and the Bajoran Kai.