Yep. TWOK is the first time we heard anything about a Klingon NZ...probably because the only stock footage they had was of Klingon K'T'ingas from TMP and had to adjust the script accordingly.
ST canon is inconsistent and contradictory.
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Yep. TWOK is the first time we heard anything about a Klingon NZ...probably because the only stock footage they had was of Klingon K'T'ingas from TMP and had to adjust the script accordingly.
I remember finding a fan-created cartography on the internet back in the day that imagined each of the various powers more as a loosely connected series of blobs (centered on star systems) rather than the nation-statey areas of space. The Federation was less contiguous, which better represented the idea that the placement of systems wishing to join the Federation freely would be somewhat random, with some systems choosing to remain independent or neutral, while the empires were more tightly bound to indicate the Klingons/Romulans were more likely to conquer neighboring star systems.
I always thought that was probably a more likely way for such things to look than what we got with the official materials.
I always thought that was probably a more likely way for such things to look than what we got with the official materials.
I imagine that the term "federation space" is non-inclusive. The space occupied by federation members and their colonies is fully intertwined with other interstellar assocations, alliances, governements, kingdoms, etc..
Two federation members, might have half a dozen entirely different interstellar entities separating them. None of whom comsider the space around them "federation space." It's their space, they don't seek the federation's permission to exist.
The Trouble with Tribbles mentions the klingon "sphere of influance" suggesting something like cold war western and eastern europe, nations or other entities separating the federation from the klingon empire.
Basically the federation and the empire don't simply bunt up agaist each other along the entirety of a border. There are dozens or hundreds of civilizations in-between.
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I searched using those words on several websites. I found a wide variety of maps, but not one that has the Federation made of many unconnected bubbles. I did notice though that the Federation's usually shown as a long irregular shape and a second shape, while the other powers usually seem to be more rounded shapes centered around the planets that conquered them. So a bit of that pattern is visible.
Here's the Galactic Map from the Franz Joseph Star Trek Tech Manual (circa 1975) - which ST:TMP, STII:TWoK, and STIII:TSFS borrowed some background elements from (And no, Paramount did not own the rights to it directly - Franz Joseph won the right to claim it as his own copyright-able work in court back in the day):
^^^
And it did show an "Organian Treaty Zone" between the UFP and Klingon Empire.
^^^
And it did show an "Organian Treaty Zone" between the UFP and Klingon Empire.
Like this?
https://i.imgur.com/9FLfHqZ.png
Or this:
https://i.imgur.com/Vro4GVh.jpg
Or this:
https://i.imgur.com/Zu3616J.png
There are a few others but nothing I can find right now....
My, that is a...compact UFP! Around 20 light years by 20.
If it's also 20 ly deep then that's 8000 cubic light years which could be what Picard meant in his statement in ST:FC
I generally don't mind a smaller Federation as it makes better sense in terms of the travel times. Perhaps this is just the fully signed up members and there's an extended period outside that are more like UFP protectorates, where the Enterprise does most of her exploring and patrolling?
Allies, but not officially UFP
My, that is a...compact UFP! Around 20 light years by 20.
If it's also 20 ly deep then that's 8000 cubic light years which could be what Picard meant in his statement in ST:FC
I generally don't mind a smaller Federation as it makes better sense in terms of the travel times. Perhaps this is just the fully signed up members and there's an extended period outside that are more like UFP protectorates, where the Enterprise does most of her exploring and patrolling?
Allies, but not officially UFP
I think that particular map is post-Romulan War; so its the late 22nd Federation, is why, going to Kirk's time which may not be that bigger. 20ly spheres are friggin' huge, a 40 LY sphere is gigantic.... Orion's Arm and one of the best Star Maps I've seen have taught me that...
A smaller, more bumpy/holey federation as well would explain how Orion Pirates are both an 1) Early threat and 2) a continuing threat, since the Orion Stars (pi3 Orionis) is a mere 26ly away, allows for the Romulans to be near Earth but not close enough to take us out easily, and Qonos to be around 50~ ly away with more space on the Federation side than Klingon side (which must bug Klingon Strategists to no end). If Cardassia, Bajor, the Breen are the rough opposite of the Klingons and Romulans, then Federation space again can be as small as 50, 70 LY or so at least around Sol, which to me makes a lot of sense, what with how doggone slow normal/cruising warp speed is anyway.
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But those are the same old maps that are always seen; the ones that show those supposed space states like they were countries on Earth with a continuous territory on a plane, a few exclaves here and there don't change a thing about that.
You'd need a 3D map to properly show politics in space.
Thanks. But it sounded to me like people were talking about star maps where the federation is made up of several unconnected bubbles. If people were just referring to the Federation being a large space with a few enclaves away from it, then I misunderstood what people were talking about, and I already found maps like those ones.
There's one map that comes to mind in that regard, let me see...it was on a blog, no?
Peter David, writer for the Star Trek comics, wrote in rec.arts.startrek what were acceptable sources for the stories and what not in 1990:
"This is what we have been told by Paramount as being "official/real/ canonical" whatever phrase you want to use, Star Trek.
First Season STTOS
Second season STTOS
STTMP
STTNG
That's it, in terms of what is absolutely acceptable.
The animated series is verboten. No mention to be made, no characters to be used. Nothing. Nada. If it was established on the animated series and we try to use it, we're told it wasn't established.
As for Treks 2 through 5, and the entire third season, nothing in that is absolute. We are told that "some things" are official (i.e., acceptable) and some things aren't. For example, we tried to have a storyline where Chekov is wishing that he could have his own command and were told this is no longer part of his character. When we cited his semi-conscious stating of "Admiral" as rank in Trek IV as an example that it must still be SOMEWHERE in his mind, we were told that that didn't count. We have never been given a complete list of what is acceptable and what is not.
And that is also first hand from Richard Arnold."
Also...
"No, the cat creature in Trek V was not a Caitian. We tried to introduce a Caitian in the Trek comic and were told Caitians don't exist. We pointed out that the cat creature in Trek V (not to mention an ambassador in Trek IV) sure looked like Caitians to us. We were told we were wrong. Welcome to the wild, wacky world of continuity."
"This is what we have been told by Paramount as being "official/real/ canonical" whatever phrase you want to use, Star Trek.
First Season STTOS
Second season STTOS
STTMP
STTNG
That's it, in terms of what is absolutely acceptable.
The animated series is verboten. No mention to be made, no characters to be used. Nothing. Nada. If it was established on the animated series and we try to use it, we're told it wasn't established.
As for Treks 2 through 5, and the entire third season, nothing in that is absolute. We are told that "some things" are official (i.e., acceptable) and some things aren't. For example, we tried to have a storyline where Chekov is wishing that he could have his own command and were told this is no longer part of his character. When we cited his semi-conscious stating of "Admiral" as rank in Trek IV as an example that it must still be SOMEWHERE in his mind, we were told that that didn't count. We have never been given a complete list of what is acceptable and what is not.
And that is also first hand from Richard Arnold."
Also...
"No, the cat creature in Trek V was not a Caitian. We tried to introduce a Caitian in the Trek comic and were told Caitians don't exist. We pointed out that the cat creature in Trek V (not to mention an ambassador in Trek IV) sure looked like Caitians to us. We were told we were wrong. Welcome to the wild, wacky world of continuity."
Thank god it's not 1990 anymore.
I love that. We were told we were wrong. Yup, sounds about right.
I thought Andor and Vulcan shared a border
The God Thing must've set up those Guidelines.
It seems absurd not to include, as canon, the third season of TOS, never mind the movies and Next Gen, DS9, and Voyager. These are official productions by Paramount/CBS, so they have to be canon, almost by definition. But I don't own the franchise, they do, so they can do whatever they want.
Well, it was 1990, so DS9 and VOY weren't around yet. But otherwise I agree with you.
I'm pretty sure those guidelines went out the window after Gene Roddenberry died and Richard Arnold was let go.
Yeah that sounds like the list Roddenberry would promote. Remember he bailed on the third season. Yes it had his name in the credits and he was paid a salary; but he turned the reins over to Fred Frieberger. He was also aware of fan reaction to the third season of TOS.
As for the animated series, Filmation told Paramount that they considered what they created was copyrighted by them, thus any references to elements from the animated series meant they would be owed royalties by Paramount. So Paramount wanted to be sure no elements from the animated series would be referenced in TNG so they could completely avoid any kind of legal hassle.
Gene Roddenberry also expressed disdain for practically all the feature films after Star Trek The Motion Picture. He was particularly upset with the fact that they blew up the Starship Enterprise in Star Trek IiI: The Search For Spock.
So yeah, I can see Gene Roddenberry and his lawyer excising anything Roddenberry didn't like about previous Star Trek that he didn't have a direct hand in creating, or where there was a question of whether another production company could win royalties if a case went to court.
As for the animated series, Filmation told Paramount that they considered what they created was copyrighted by them, thus any references to elements from the animated series meant they would be owed royalties by Paramount. So Paramount wanted to be sure no elements from the animated series would be referenced in TNG so they could completely avoid any kind of legal hassle.
Gene Roddenberry also expressed disdain for practically all the feature films after Star Trek The Motion Picture. He was particularly upset with the fact that they blew up the Starship Enterprise in Star Trek IiI: The Search For Spock.
So yeah, I can see Gene Roddenberry and his lawyer excising anything Roddenberry didn't like about previous Star Trek that he didn't have a direct hand in creating, or where there was a question of whether another production company could win royalties if a case went to court.
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