All that stuff about good writing to create situations where his powers, even suitably powered, can’t always win the day on his own... I already mentioned the need for good writing to create exactly those types of scenarios in previous posts here, so you’re preaching to the choir there.
News Superman & Lois Ordered to Series at The CW
- Thread starter Enterprise is Great
- Start date
If you want more situations where they don't need to use their powers to win the day, then why are you so obsessed with making them more powerful? Making them less powerful gives you more opportunities for that kind of things, since they aren't going to be constantly relying on stronger, and stronger powers.
Thinking over it more, the Arrowverse definitely does have a lot more impressive regular displays of super powers.
For some reason I was thinking that AoS had tons of big crazy CGI sequences, but now that you mention it, they really haven't really done much beyond Quake occasionally using her powers, a few space ships, portals and the occaisonal other superpower. For some reason I was thinking it was filled with tons of big, crazy, CGI action sequences, but most of their most impressive action sequences have actually been the CGI free fight scenes.
Thinking over it more, the Arrowverse definitely does have a lot more impressive regular displays of super powers.
I want both. I want the best writing possible. I want more powerful heroes, more powerful villains. I want creative problems, creative solutions, creative battles, better fight choreography. Yes, I have high standards, and yes, I realize not all of that is practical due to budgetary constraints, but that doesn't mean I can't hope for some (or all) of it.
And the point isn't that better problem solving from the heroes is made easier for the writers if the heroes are underpowered. Writing shouldn't be easy. Better problem solving from the heroes should be part and parcel of being suitably powered.
I just don't really see where making the characters more powerful would really make that much a difference outside of the spectacle, which we already get plenty of as it is. It just feels completely unnecessary to me, unless they're going to take things the level of a big blockbuster movie, which they can't quite do.
Maybe it's easier for me to explain in visual form:
**spoilers ahead for anyone who hasn't watched Season 4**
Supergirl in a kryptonite-resistant suit meets Lex in a kryptonite-powered alien suit. Epic fight upcoming, right? Yes, for most of it. 1:20 in, Supergirl pulls off some pretty nice acrobatics. 1:31 in. Why does she float in the air, present herself as a stationary target for a solid 2 seconds, and let Lex shoot her down? Why doesn't she speed rush Lex, go on the offensive, or do anything else but just float there in the air?
Because lazy writing. The writers wanted her to be defeated so that they could shoehorn the Red Daughter sacrifice in. It's an example of underpowering the hero AND making her seem clumsy and untrained.
If they really wanted to shoehorn the Red Daughter sacrifice in, they could have written it a different way. Have a brutal battle, have Supergirl attack Lex, knock him down, and just as she is about to deliver a perhaps fatal blow, she hesitates, because that's not who she is. The momentary hesitation allows Lex to gain the advantage and shoot her down. You turn a crisis of character into the climactic plot point, instead of making the hero look underpowered. You make her lose because her morals didn't let her kill. You show the difference between a hero and a villain. You reinforce Supergirl as the moral bastion of good, you emphasize Lex as the polar opposite. This took me all of five minutes to brainstorm. The writers couldn't have done better with weeks?
And this is assuming it wasn't better just to leave the Red Daughter character alive.
Last edited:
^ There is nothing "lazy" about the writing and narrative choices you're trying to criticize.
You just don't like or agree with them.
You just don't like or agree with them.
It goes without saying that every opinion on here is subjective.
I think it's lazy because they deferred to "a easy out" (making the hero look clumsy or untrained) instead of thinking of a more creative way to defeat the hero.
It absolutely has to do with her power level. Seeing her get defeated easily is a unsatisfactory resolution. Seeing her fight Lex to the limit of her powers and gain the upper hand, only to have her get defeated because of her strict morals - that is a much more satisfactory resolution where:
a) you get to see her use her full powers during the fight
and
b) you get to see her heroic nature and strict morals by refusing to kill
Win-win.
It's not necessarily about changing the outcome. It's about changing what you see presented on the screen with regards to her powers. The two most common criticisms I've had to my posts are:
1. It costs too much to depict
and
2. Who cares about seeing more powers?
1. You cannot tell me it would break their VFX budget to have a few more scenes in the above fight of Supergirl and Lex battling, maybe a few scenes of her using her super speed, maybe a few more choreographed punches, and a final scene of her about to deliver a fatal blow to Lex.
2. It's a superhero TV series. Some people do care about seeing more powers depicted on screen.
And they ARE capable of this. Supergirl vs. Reign was one of the better depicted fights in the series.
Uhh, it's not "a solid 2 seconds," because the scene is in slow motion. I'd estimate it's slowed down at least 2 times from the real-life speed of the action, and since it is in slow motion, we're free to assume that in-story they were moving even faster (the Six Million Dollar Man/Smallville precedent, using slow motion to represent superspeed so you can be vague about just how fast they're actually going).
Uhh, no. You're making the mistake of assuming that the writers do the actual fight choreography. That's not their department. It's the responsibility of the stunt coordinator and the director.
And when dealing with wirework like this, there are certain unavoidable physical limitations in play. You can only move the performers so fast without risking harm to them or damage to the wires. There are constraints that you can try to hide with camera angles and editing but are sometimes unavoidable. For instance, in the Christopher Reeve movies, my father disliked the way Superman levitated gently into the air like Peter Pan rather than leaping forcefully off the ground like George Reeves had done. But it was the only way to do it, because leaping would've created slack in the wires and the effect wouldn't have worked. I'd imagine some similar physical constraint was in effect here -- for instance, it was safer to yank the stuntwoman backward from a stationary start, or maybe they had to use different wire riggings for the upward move and the flipped-backward move, so a moment's pause in the choreography was necessary to allow for the transition between shots.
You realize if they're both moving in super speed, she should be able to anticipate and go on the offensive in super speed too, right? Or is she that bad and underpowered that she doesn't have those abilities?
I've already said I want better fight choreography. I have high standards, sue me.
The speed rush I proposed didn't have to be done in mid-air. They could've written her to jump up, land back down on the ground, and THEN speed rush Lex. No wires necessary.
Seems like less of a writing issue than one of... cinematography, directing? I'm sure people more savvy about how the sauce is made can be more precise. But I doubt the script said, "she floats stationary in the air for a solid 2 seconds." And it goes back to issues of budget, I imagine. Without a blockbuster budget, this stuff is sometimes gonna look awkward.
*Sigh* It is easy to be an armchair quarterback and talk about how things could be better when you have the luxury to spend days thinking about just one scene. It's about a thousand times harder to make a scene perfect when you're actually responsible for making every other decision that goes into creating a TV episode at the same time.
Is criticism not allowed? Is my criticism unfair? Every criticism ever posted on this board has some degree of armchair quarterbacking to it.
In an already effects heavy episode/season, yes. But it's not just about budget, it's also about time, these episodes are only 42 minutes, and usually have lot going on, so they're not going to want to spend any longer than is necessary on this kind of stuff. Another issue on the time front is the production time. It takes time to choreograph and rehearse the fights, and to put together the effects, and since TV productions need to get an episode out every week, they have to keep that kind of stuff moving fast. Time and money are the two most important things when it comes to TV production.
Sure more powers are nice, but when an already established power can do the job, then you might as well just use that power. The problem with constantly wanting to see more powers is that you eventually end up with things like Super Ventriloquism, and characters shooting tiny clones out of their hands. If anyone is wondering, those are real powers that Superman used in the Silver Age comics.
Fair points. I would think though, that for the season finale, they would try to at least amp things up a bit. Or that they would spend relatively more time and resources on it.
By more powers, I don't necessarily mean new powers. I just mean her existing powers depicted properly and appropriately on screen. I also mean not having her look untrained and underpowered.
Like I said, they're capable of this level of choreography and power depiction. Supergirl vs. Reign was very good. Supergirl vs. Non was also pretty good in terms of showing raw power vs. raw power.