News Superman & Lois Ordered to Series at The CW

[Christopher]

I just think the writers can raise their power levels without making them completely invulnerable and impervious for dramatic purposes.

But what do you even mean by "raise their power levels?" How do you propose it would be depicted? And what purpose would it serve in narrative terms?

The thing about "power levels" in fiction is that they're totally arbitrary and rarely have any real effect on the storytelling. No matter how many power-ups you give the heroes, the villains will instantly rise to the same levels so that they can continue to pose a threat. Any pretense of a power increase is essentially superficial. Star Trek had Starfleet upgrade from photon torpedoes to quantum torpedoes, supposedly much more powerful, but in practice they were still depicted as functioning little differently from cannonballs in the Age of Sail, causing only as large an explosion as a given scene required. The Flash has learned numerous new speed tricks and fighting techniques over the years, but they still don't make him any more effective against the bad guys, since they need to keep the bad guys free until the end of an episode or a season. If anything, asserting increases in the characters' power levels just makes it more implausible that they can't defeat the villains more easily.

 

[TheMadCloner]

But what do you even mean by "raise their power levels?" How do you propose it would be depicted? And what purpose would it serve in narrative terms?

The thing about "power levels" in fiction is that they're totally arbitrary and rarely have any real effect on the storytelling. No matter how many power-ups you give the heroes, the villains will instantly rise to the same levels so that they can continue to pose a threat. Any pretense of a power increase is essentially superficial. Star Trek had Starfleet upgrade from photon torpedoes to quantum torpedoes, supposedly much more powerful, but in practice they were still depicted as functioning little differently from cannonballs in the Age of Sail, causing only as large an explosion as a given scene required. The Flash has learned numerous new speed tricks and fighting techniques over the years, but they still don't make him any more effective against the bad guys, since they need to keep the bad guys free until the end of an episode or a season. If anything, asserting increases in the characters' power levels just makes it more implausible that they can't defeat the villains more easily.

I wouldn't mind raising the villain's power levels as well. Just make the heroes have power levels that are closer to what they are capable of (even arbitrarily) in the comics. The biggest thing for me is lazy writing. Kryptonians shouldn't be routinely overpowered by "mere" augmented humans without a specific reason. Better writing should be able to accomplish the goal of dramatic tension without substantially depowering the hero's basic skills. Make the villains stronger (or as a corollary: don't have weak villains overpowering the heroes). Find unique and reasonable explanations for why the heroes may be more vulnerable than usual. Write compelling stories and scenarios where the heroes, even when suitably powered, have to rely on their less powerful allies/friends/family to save the day. And finally, there isn't necessarily a need to put the hero in a life or death situation in every episode (or even in every episode arc); some of the strongest stories are character-driven and not driven by a world-threatening enemy.

I actually feel like season one of Supergirl did this fairly well. They started off with a weaker Kara because of her lack of training and lack of experience in using her powers. As the season progressed they gradually increased her power level. By the end of the season, the things that truly threatened her were kryptonite, villains who practiced magic, her doppleganger, other Kryptonians, and a descendant of one of the greatest supervillains (Brainiac) in that rogues gallery. All things which are consistent threats to Kryptonians in the comics as well. Some of the best stories in that season revolved around creative ideas to make Kara more vulnerable, and some of the others revolved around crises of character rather than crises of life or death.

As the series has progressed, they've gradually gone the other direction with her powers.

 

[Christopher]

I wouldn't mind raising the villain's power levels as well. Just make the heroes have power levels that are closer to what they are capable of (even arbitrarily) in the comics.

You keep echoing the phrase "power levels" without offering any kind of specifics. Repeating a thing does not clarify it. Can you offer actual examples of what you mean? Can you explain it without using the word "power" or "level"?

The biggest thing for me is lazy writing. Kryptonians shouldn't be routinely overpowered by "mere" augmented humans without a specific reason.

"Shouldn't" is a very strange word to use when talking about something imaginary. Every incarnation of a fictional universe is free to reinvent its rules to suit its own needs. Different versions of Superman have given him widely varying power levels, from the late-'30s Superman who could only jump rather than fly and whose skin could be penetrated by an exploding shell to the Silver Age version who was borderline-godlike. A number of versions have intentionally reduced his powers to make him more vulnerable and interesting -- Denny O'Neil's in the '70s, John Byrne's post-Crisis, Bruce Timm's in Superman: The Animated Series. One of the most exciting and clever Superman action sequences ever was in S:TAS's second episode, where Superman tried to save a crashing airliner... and barely succeeded. It was the limitation on his powers, the difficulty he faced in achieving his goal, that made it so thrilling and effective.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

I think they're at a pretty good point right now, they've got all of the core abilities, and can do some pretty impressive feats, but they're not so overpowered that they can just instantly deal with any threat.
I don't think they could really make them any more powered without it making them to powerful.

There's no such thing as "too powerful" when you have competent writers who know how to use Superman as he was in the Justice League Unlimited series finale, or the classic Crisis on Infinite Earths comics for two examples. When the challenge demands it, he will let loose. Making him underpowered for fear that he can do "anything" would be a failure of writers who simply do not understand how Superman sees / manages himself. He's not a 19th century circus strongman showing off at every turn, but he is an otherworldly super-being, and the payoff for the character is when some jaw-dropping threat presses his alien power into service, which is not happening every day.

 

[TheMadCloner]

You keep echoing the phrase "power levels" without offering any kind of specifics. Repeating a thing does not clarify it. Can you offer actual examples of what you mean? Can you explain it without using the word "power" or "level"?

Make him more powerful, lol. Harder to get beat down in a fist fight, more capable of incredible feats, requiring stronger villains to defeat him one on one, etc.

Think how he was depicted in the JL movie. That’s the direction, but not quite that omnipotent or written so badly that other characters are made to look useless. There is middle ground between the current Supergirl series and the JL movie.

"Shouldn't" is a very strange word to use when talking about something imaginary. Every incarnation of a fictional universe is free to reinvent its rules to suit its own needs. Different versions of Superman have given him widely varying power levels, from the late-'30s Superman who could only jump rather than fly and whose skin could be penetrated by an exploding shell to the Silver Age version who was borderline-godlike. A number of versions have intentionally reduced his powers to make him more vulnerable and interesting -- Denny O'Neil's in the '70s, John Byrne's post-Crisis, Bruce Timm's in Superman: The Animated Series. One of the most exciting and clever Superman action sequences ever was in S:TAS's second episode, where Superman tried to save a crashing airliner... and barely succeeded. It was the limitation on his powers, the difficulty he faced in achieving his goal, that made it so thrilling and effective.

It’s obviously a personal preference about the way a character is depicted in a imaginary universe, that goes without saying as a intrinsic part of the argument.

I named various ways in my last post on how good writing can still make exciting stories even with a more powerful hero.

 

[theenglish]

Superman and Supergirl are portrayed at least as powerful, maybe moreso, than Superman was in the Bryne era. I don't know why this is a problem.

 

[YLu]

There's no such thing as "too powerful" when you have competent writers who know how to use Superman as he was in the Justice League Unlimited series finale, or the classic Crisis on Infinite Earths comics for two examples.

Funny you should mention JLU. Dwayne McDuffie, writer/producer for that show, used to challenge fans to find fight scenes where characters like the Flash and Superman are using their powers logically and in a way that makes sense. His point was that you can't really find any because they don't really exist, that those characters are so overpowered that writers (himself included) *have* to de-power them or have them act in ways that don't make sense, in order to not have fight scenes that end in seconds. (Scenes where they're fighting equal counterparts like other Kryptonians or Bizarro are the exception, of course.)

 

[TheMadCloner]

It's more than "power levels" too.

It's also HOW they get beat when they do get beat. Supergirl should not succumb to one simple punch. Too often the show depicts her as still being terribly untrained when it comes to fighting and she gets beat in the most unsatisfying ways. It's one thing if she gets beat by a stronger villain or gets outsmarted by a smarter villain, or if she engages in a longer, fairly even battle before getting beat. It's another when she gets beat because the writers purposely make her overly clumsy or overly unprepared.

Spoiler

For example, in the Season 4 finale, Lex might have an advantage over her in his kryptonite powered alien suit, but she was also wearing a kryptonite-resistant suit AND she should have the advantage in terms of combat training. She shouldn't be floating in the air for a solid two seconds waiting for Lex to shoot her down. That battle was made so unsatisfactory because the writers wanted to shoehorn Red Daughter's sacrifice into the fight.

The writers should be able to create drama without making their heroes look underpowered AND untrained.

 

[Christopher]

Make him more powerful, lol.

I repeat: Just repeating something does not -- oh. Oops.

Harder to get beat down in a fist fight,

What good is that narratively? If it means he beats the bad guy earlier, the story ends prematurely.

more capable of incredible feats,

On a CW budget? They have to dole out the really incredible feats on an intermittent basis. And again, this is not something that exists in a vacuum; it has to be something that serves the story being told and doesn't get in its way. The story drives the action, not the other way around.

requiring stronger villains to defeat him one on one, etc.

Again, that's how it works anyway -- no matter how strong the hero is claimed to be, the villains will automatically be strong enough to match, because that's what makes the narrative possible. So it doesn't matter if the heroes and villains are "stronger" on some absolute scale -- they'll still cancel each other out, and it will be exactly the same from a narrative standpoint. The only thing it could affect is the scale of the action/FX sequences, and again, that comes down to insurmountable considerations of budget and time.

Think how he was depicted in the JL movie.

Movies can afford to go bigger. Also, they had the luxury of portraying Superman's power level that high because he was only in part of the movie, was initially a threat to the heroes on his return, and was then part of the solution in the climax. If he'd been a primary hero throughout the narrative, he couldn't have been so disproportionately powerful, for the reasons I've given before.

 

[TheMadCloner]

@Christopher

The villains should be automatically strong enough to match, that what I want to see. I want to see more powerful villains against more powerful heroes. Supergirl/Superman should not be regularly outmatched by the mundane.

Also, please take a look at my last post which wasn't a direct reply to anyone in particular. It's not only "power", it's how they're getting beat when they do get beat.

 

[Kirk Prime]

I think one of the more interesting things to watch for is seeing how well the writers can portray Superman's power level whilst still maintaining some level of dramatic tension.

That balanced depiction of Kryptonians is probably the trickiest thing to pull off on TV or in a movie. The Supergirl series features a pretty underpowered Kara, while the Justice League movie had a climax where Superman comes in and throws two punches, wins the entire fight, and makes the rest of the team look like amateurs. Surely there has to be some middle ground there.

You come up with situations and criminals that can't necessarily be beaten physically. You don't depower Superman--you write better stories. Not all stories require epic battles.

There are plenty of things he can't stop. What if there is a big villain like Darkseid, but he brings along all the other Apokolips people? Between parademons, Steppinwolf, Kalabak, Granny Goodness, and others, Superman can't fight them all at the same time, even if he can beat them all individually, because Darkseid is there, and Superman has to go all out to beat him.

In a situation like the above, he needs other heroes too. But at a lesser example, Superman's powers may be able to stop a train, but he can't save someone from a heart attack, as we learned in Superman: The Movie. It's a big lesson.

 

[captainkirk]

Is a battle of brute strength that interesting in a Superman story? No matter how powerful you make him, the villains have to be stronger, so as Christopher said, it makes no narrative difference. Isn't it more interesting to see him go up against a foe that can't be defeated by force? Superman is supposed to be an ideal to strive for. He should win not just because he's strong physically, but because he's strong morally.

 

[Christopher]

Isn't it more interesting to see him go up against a foe that can't be defeated by force? Superman is supposed to be an ideal to strive for. He should win not just because he's strong physically, but because he's strong morally.

And intellectually. One thing that often gets overlooked about the classic portrayals of Superman is that his brain is as impressive as his brawn. There are plenty of cool stories where Superman outwits his foes rather than outmuscling them.

 

[The Realist]

That's why Lex Luthor is Superman's most important and enduring adversary. Lexosuits aside, he's not even close to a match for Superman physically, but he makes himself a formidable challenge through sheer genius and cunning.

 

[Kirk Prime]

Is a battle of brute strength that interesting in a Superman story? No matter how powerful you make him, the villains have to be stronger, so as Christopher said, it makes no narrative difference. Isn't it more interesting to see him go up against a foe that can't be defeated by force? Superman is supposed to be an ideal to strive for. He should win not just because he's strong physically, but because he's strong morally.

That's true. When force is required, Superman should be the most powerful hero in the Arrowverse, so to the extent the COIE can fix that, great. But Superman also holds back to the point where he doesn't even realize it.

Superman is also quite brilliant, and seeing him outsmart people is just as much fun as seeing him beat them down.

Ultimately, we need to see a Superman that inspires--someone that is genuinely good and knows right from wrong. They need to keep politics out of the show and just tell good superhero stories.

 

[The Realist]

Politics is just another word for morality -- the moral choices we make as a society.

And issues of morality are in no way incompatible with good superhero stories. Quite the contrary.

 

[JD]

I think the Kryptonians are already at a perfect level for the kind of stuff we are getting in the Arrowverse. They have all of their abilities, but aren't so overpowered that they have to come up with ridiculous ways to challenge them. If you keep powering them up, it eventually reaches the point of things just becoming way to over the top and the threats just get weirder and weirder as the writers struggle to come up with something to challenge the heroes. By keeping them at a lower power level they can have more straight forward threats.
While they have managed to pull of some relatively impressive stuff, it's still worth keeping in mind that these shows are on The CW and it doesn't really have the kind of money to put into it's budget that the movie studios or even the bigger networks like ABC, or Syfy, or HBO are going to have to put into these shows. So they are going to be rather limited with just how far they can take the characters' powers.

 

[Christopher]

While they have managed to pull of some relatively impressive stuff, it's still worth keeping in mind that these shows are on The CW and it doesn't really have the kind of money to put into it's budget that the movie studios or even the bigger networks like ABC, or Syfy, or HBO are going to have to put into these shows. So they are going to be rather limited with just how far they can take the characters' powers.

Although they've still done some surprisingly impressive CGI action sequences, especially on The Flash. They've come as close to big-scale comic book action as anything in live-action TV ever has.

 

[JD]

Oh, yeah, I've often been impressed with what they've done, but we're still not going to be getting stuff at the level of the movie studios or bigger networks.
I'm still amazed they actually gave us the Grodd vs King Shark episode, that was an especially impressive effects showcase.

 

[Christopher]

Oh, yeah, I've often been impressed with what they've done, but we're still not going to be getting stuff at the level of the movie studios or bigger networks.

I don't think we've seen anything on the big networks that equals the ambition of things like King Shark vs. Grodd, or Killer Frost making ice bridges all over the city like she did in one of her early episodes. Agents of SHIELD has had some fairly big FX sequences, but it isn't as superhero-heavy as the Arrowverse, so the action isn't in quite the same comic-booky vein. The CGI is certainly more realistic, but the action isn't as big and wild as it gets in the Arrowverse.

As for movies, meh. They go too far with the action and spectacle. Modern CGI action in movies is so overdone that it's just a lot of clutter and noise. I like the happy medium the Arrowverse strikes.