Spoilers On Seven and sexuality

[gblews]

But... we literally don't know the sexuality of anyone outside the senior staff, so how can you use them? Of course I meant the main crew of the show. And it's not 1 or 2 in 8 or 9, it's 3 (Culber, Stamets, Reno) in 6 (Burnham, Saru, Tilly). 7 if you count Tyler.

Please explain to me why knowing the sexuality of the rest of the crew would affect your argument? There are 136 crew members, of which we know 3 are either bi or gay. If you just take the bridge crew only, 1 is gay.

Neither Reno or Culber are part of the bridge crew. The reason I excluded Reno from crew is because she wasn’t part of the original crew.

This is part of the reason for including the entire crew when considering whether or not 3 gay people is a high (or low) number. But it really doesn’t matter if you include her or not, as there still only 3 LGBT characters (that we know of), out of 136.

We know more about Paris in the first episode than we do about Culber in two seasons of Discovery.

This is what I was referring to specifically:

Culber is in there exclusively to be half of a gay relationship.

We’ve only seen 2 (13 to 15 episode) seasons of DSC. So Culber could end up having storylines that are separate from the romance as the show goes on. In other words, you may know a lot more about Culber at the end of DSC’s run than we do now. You certainly knew a lot more about Paris at the end of 7 seasons.

You know Paris and B’lanna had storylines that didn’t involve their romance because you have seen 7 seasons of Voy. So it just may appear now that Culber is only there for the romance.

I am gay, so it would be a bit weird if I had a problem with gay people.

In my life, I’v known black people who didn’t like being around other black people, women who didn’t want to be around other women, Latinx who didn’t want to be around other Latin’s. So I have to conclude that there are gay people who may be anti-LGBTQ.

So, don’t think your claim of being gay will automatically shield your posts from appearing homophobic or transphobic.

Now, you said you thought the “pendulum” may have swung “too far.” It sounds to me like you’re saying here (and in other posts) that there are too many gay people in PIC and DSC. If that’s not what you meant, then what did this mean?

You're missing the point, quite clearly.

Please explain to me the point I am missing.

 

[Hythlodeus]

No. But 5 gay senior crew members in 3 seasons is.

who of them is senior? Culber is a random medical officer, not the Ship's main doctor. Reno is a random engineer, not even part of the regular crew. Stamets is a science officer, head of the Spore drive departement, but not part of the bridge crew. Seven is not part of the LaSirena at all, at least not in season 1 and Raffi technically only booked a trip on that ship.

 

[Gov Kodos]

who of them is senior? Culber is a random medical officer, not the Ship's main doctor. Reno is a random engineer, not even part of the regular crew. Stamets is a science officer, head of the Spore drive departement, but not part of the bridge crew. Seven is not part of the LaSirena at all, at least not in season 1 and Raffi technically only booked a trip on that ship.

Maybe it's five seen rather than senior?.

 

[seigezunt]

I am completely unbothered by this development, and it appears that some people who are underrepresented and abused in society are very, very happy about it. Representation matters, and it remains a source of embarrassment that Trek was behind the ball on this so very, very long.

I'm more concerned about a potential portrayal of any Star Trek characters, straight or gay, in a long-term relationship, something the franchise has not often carried off very well (outside of Kirk and Spock )

And if this helps clear our palates of the odd Chakotay romance, please, bring it.

 

[Makarov]

It's about as odd as the Chakotay romance, comes out of nowhere. Maybe even more weird because Chakotay had years of interaction with her so at least there was something.

Then there's how far from Borg perfection she had gotten to be solving her issues by drinking and maybe doing drugs with Raffi, it's hard to reconcile with the Seven from Voyager

 

[fireproof78]

Maybe I'm being too simplistic here but I felt like 20 years is enough to explain the changes. Seven has clearly struggled to fit in to Federation life and her going to Earth was not as easy as she thought. She feels like an outsider and finds ways to keep herself going.

 

[Lord Garth]

It's about as odd as the Chakotay romance, comes out of nowhere. Maybe even more weird because Chakotay had years of interaction with her so at least there was something.

Besides TNG, I re-watched a ton of VOY before PIC. I can say this 100% for sure: there was nothing there between Seven and Chakotay until there suddenly was. And when they were together, there was no chemistry at all. The pairing that looked more likely was Janeway/Chakotay.

When Seven was looking for a date in "Someone to Watch Over Me", it was all men. The best match turned out to be a disaster. Two seasons later, in "Human Error", she tried out the Chakotay hologram. I think I know why. She left Chakotay out of her search for a matchup two years earlier because he was First Officer. And she didn't want to approach him because of his position, so she took it to the holodeck. After her holodeck fantasy was exposed, she probably figured, "Why not actually try a relationship with Chakotay?" And then she eventually discovered that wasn't working out either.

It's clear that at the very end of the season finale for PIC, they fast-forwarded over some things just to show the crew of La Sirena going forward and giving hints of what it would be like beyond what we've already seen. I expect the second season to delve deeper into whatever was glossed over. Seven and Musiker holding hands was something the actors added in, and Chabon chose to leave it in. So they'll show more in S2.

 

[cooleddie74]

The James T. Kirk of 2273(TMP) wasn't the same James T. Kirk from 2293(TUC, GEN). 20 years can make a huge difference in a person's attitudes and outlook on life, especially if they've suffered loss and other tragedies during that time. Seven simply isn't the former Borg drone who returned to Earth in 2378 and has had twenty-one years amongst her fellow humans to explore her past, her identity and her hopes and dreams for where she wanted to be and who she wanted to become.

Clearly she didn't find some of the answers she'd hoped for. But I can totally believe she'd behave differently than how she did when Voyager returned home.

 

[Danja]

Then there's how far from Borg perfection she had gotten to be solving her issues by drinking and maybe doing drugs with Raffi, it's hard to reconcile with the Seven from Voyager

She was raised to fight. That was her world for twenty years: fighting and assimilating.

What do you do when your primary occupational skill involves killing people?

She doesn't quite know what to do with herself now that she's away from Voyager. She's made mistakes. She's human.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The funny thing is when she exploring relationships later on, she completely side stepped Harry even after she knew he tried to hit on her. Even to this day, even in articles, they always beat up on Harry Kim for turning her down, when she flat out offered him sex. Although he did do the right thing IMO, they'll never ever give him a break on that.



I think some think that Janeway, as a mother figure would still be very close by after all those years, and therefore Seven would be a lot like her old self.

Or in TNG era style, she would be told 'once you get back to earth, you can do anything you want or persue anything you want'. She then would probably be an astrophysicist or something, with a nice, good looking bland husband and children.

I think this Trek intentionally went into the other direction. Apparently either everyone went their separate ways, or Seven broke off from everyone and went her own way.

 

[Guy Gardener]

She was raised to fight. That was her world for twenty years: fighting and assimilating.

What do you do when your primary occupational skill involves killing people?

She doesn't quite know what to do with herself now that she's away from Voyager. She's made mistakes. She's human.

The Borg do not fight.

They save.

They lift up the tragic, and make them perfect.

We don't see it that way, but the Borg do.

The Drones in play since their first appearance, are nurses or relief workers.

Benign.

If the Borg designed a soldier class of drone to go to war, the Federation would not stand a chance.

 

[hyzmarca]

Jeri Ryan is obviously very attractive, but I found her Voyager outfits very off-putting. It was just too much, almost pornographic. Like we get it, she's hot, but stop objectifying her.

The suit was good lore. She had most of her skin all cut off and replaced by borg armor, and a dermal regenerator wasn't going to be enough, so she needed a prosthesis to serve as a second skin while her own skin healed.

The costuming decision to make her wear only that, instead of making it a rarely seen undergarment, I can't agree with. Just for the logistics of it, because they had to shut down production for 20 minutes if she needed to pee.

Not even a little.

It made her physically ill. The only reason she put up with it was because she had a kid to feed.

To elaborate, the original design was too tight, which made it difficult for her to breathe, to the point that she passed out from hypoxia a few times while wearing it.

 

[Makarov]

Seven was practically a genius on Voyager and her struggle was to regain her humanity so I would think after tragedies and mistakes she would fall back on her borg ways for comfort. She would be leading the rangers with brutal efficiency and precision. It just doesnt seem like that character would turn to drinking and brooding like Rios. When she had setbacks on Voyager more of her borg side came out.

And yes 20 years time anyone can change into anything, Picard could be a mob crime boss or lead singer of a rock band etc.. but I think some stuff doesn't quite ring true to the character we know. Picard at least still seemed like Picard

 

[flandry84]

Having lived the first part of her life as a drone she was slowly introduced to 24th century life during her years with the Voyager crew.But can you imagine the complete future shock she must have underwent when she returned to the Federation?
Small wonder that Annika would want to experience everything that that would entail.Certainly food,music ,culture and yep,sex.
Would you dear reader be any different?

 

[fireproof78]

Seven was practically a genius on Voyager and her struggle was to regain her humanity so I would think after tragedies and mistakes she would fall back on her borg ways for comfort. She would be leading the rangers with brutal efficiency and precision. It just doesnt seem like that character would turn to drinking and brooding like Rios. When she had setbacks on Voyager more of her borg side came out.

But that was on Voyager, where options are limited. Versus the honest culture shock that Earth and its options would offer.

There are multiple factors at play that would not be available to Seven on the tightly monitored environment of Voyager.

 

[Makarov]

It's not really that much different than Voyager where she was frequently on her own, and free to use the holodeck, experience whatever she wanted, while on a dangerous mission. She still strived for perfection - that was the character.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Not much different?! With Voyager, if anything happened to her, the captain would have the perpetrator's hide. When she made huge errors and/ or wanted to leave, the captain would get her back. Her friends also provided her guidance (however misplaced or wrong, imho, at times). She had a bubble and a safety net. The right thing to do (remain with Voyager and adapt - more or less - to their ideology) was easily recognized and followed. And to "regain her humanity," whatever that meant. (In fact, other people told her what that meant.)

Sure, she could have been hurt or killed on an away mission, but that was about it.

When they got back, Janeway's powers to protect her, provided she still wanted to, would be limited. The crew would be scattered all over the galaxy. Starfleet may not have been very welcoming to a gifted, but stubborn exB. Far less indulgence or compassion from her superiors when she strayed from the path. And "returning to her Borg ways" when upset or insecure would have done her no favors. Opportunities, theoretically, for Seven's brilliant mind would be endless. For a former Borg... I'm not so sure. In any case - no predetermined path anymore. Lots of shades of grey. The dangers would also be endless...Not just to her life, but also in terms of exploiting her in various ways. I doubt the holodeck could have prepared her for this.

I see the "Fenris Rangers" as an attempt to find that simplicity of Voyager again. Very different, but basically, there was right and wrong and very little in between.

 

[SolarisOne]

I see the "Fenris Rangers" as an attempt to find that simplicity of Voyager again. Very different, but basically, there was right and wrong and very little in between.

And with that small statement you just struck at the heart of the matter. There's no possible way the Seven of the 2370s could be the same one circa 2399, because she--even more so than most humans--is heavily influenced by environment, mainly because she spent her formative years as a part of the Collective.

 

[Makarov]

I think that's kind of overlooking how much they explored this character on Voyager. Janeway helped her and had her back but many many times it was Seven herself saving everybody else. She made her own decisions ultimately and there were shades of grey all over the place in those stories. In Picard it's more like they just wrote her to be like everybody else, a disgruntled bad ass, and missed a few things

 

[Lord Garth]

I think that's kind of overlooking how much they explored this character on Voyager. Janeway helped her and had her back but many many times it was Seven herself saving everybody else. She made her own decisions ultimately and there were shades of grey all over the place in those stories. In Picard it's more like they just wrote her to be like everybody else, a disgruntled bad ass, and missed a few things

Janeway helped Seven a lot after she was severed from the collective and first had to reintegrate into a society of individuals. When Seven was in that stage of her life and her only regular interactions were with the Voyager crew. Clearly she's in another stage and at a different point now.

There were a few times in VOY's run, "Hope and Fear" and "Bliss" in particular, where Seven wasn't interested in returning to Earth. The crew assured her it would be a great thing. They all knew they could only give Seven so much and reaching the Alpha Quadrant would be the next step. Seven just didn't know what that would be. Neither did we.

As far as the "bad-ass"ness of La Sirena's crew, if you're Picard and you're going it alone with dangerous odds stacked against you, you want to have a crew of badasses who have nothing else to lose and live to do this stuff.