They do, and they tell Sisko that it's a deeply troubling thing they need to get to the bottom of, and then they bury the investigation.
Wouldn't recent events lead to full war between Fed and Romulan Free State?
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They do, and they tell Sisko that it's a deeply troubling thing they need to get to the bottom of, and then they bury the investigation.
Despite the implication I don't think S31 is the Federation's weapon. If it were, then the ability to get the cure for the Founders wouldn't be constantly out of reach without Bashier's methods. Same with spying on the Federation president.
Their relationship is not clear cut.
No, it's part of the Govt. That is crystal clear from all the quoted dialogue. And from ENT thru DISCO that continues to be clear, novels and head fanon notwithstanding. It has nothing to do with whether you think what they do is legitimate. States violate human rights. Sometimes on a colossal scale. Detentions, disappearances, death squads, black ops, secret police. None of this has any bearing on whether they are authorized.
Exactly. The whole thing is silly. That was a Federation facility that got blown up in Into Darkness. Kirk doesnt say, "Oh, you mean the terrorist organization?" No, the Admiral means Section 31, the Govt department.
Glad to see that Section 31's huge role in the Picard series is finally being discussed.
Nope, not even a novel by one of the guys who created them. Nothing onscreen says they were not or are not authorized. Saying they dont submit reports or get approval for specific operations means they are off the book, not that they are not authorized to do what they do. It's clear that they are a govt agency, however autonomous.
The one difference with the Tal Shiar is that that org seems to be more like the KGB. Where not only does everyone know they exist, but the State wants everyone to know they exist. There is a chilling effect on the populace knowing that a mass surveillance state is watching. Even though many specific KGB ops were obviously secret. Clearly, Section 31 is black ops only.
Well, there is a "the dog didn't bark" thing going on in Picard. Either they were unaware of Commodore Oh's true allegiance, or they were aware and supported her mission. I could go either way with that. Section 31's likely not nearly as omniscient as some of us like to think, but eliminating threats by any means necessary is very much on-brand for them.
I especially loved how they showed up right at the end
No, they are not. And they need to stop being treated as such.
I especially loved how they showed up right at the end
Clearly the Zhat Vash are why it was evil!
You keep repeating this claim and ignoring all the evidence against it, and that is getting to be rude.
How can they be part of the government when the document they cite is legally null, and canonically does not establish an actual agency? How can they be part of the government when they do not take orders at all from the government? How can they be part of the government when they spy on the head of government?
"Inquisition" is very clear: They don't report to or answer to anyone in the Federation government at all. It's not just specific operations; it's anything.
That's why I say that if you're the Federation President in 2399, upset that Nedar infiltrated Starfleet, you're not gonna be calling Section 31 to have them investigate. Because they won't take your calls, won't appear, and won't do your bidding. They don't answer to the Federation President. They don't answer to anyone but themselves.
(And in the novels, if they know that a Federation President is aware of their existence, they assassinate that President.)
They're essentially a black ops organization that uses covert resources to attain its goals. Black ops groups also use military equipment like helicopters and naval vessels to achieve their missions and also use others in official positions of power to get what they want by carefully manipulating them either without them knowing or through intimidation and fear of being exposed as complicit in illegal activities if not outright capital crimes. Section 31 isn't an official government agency of Starfleet or the Federation any more than CIA black ops groups during the Cold War were official agencies in and of themselves.
They operate independent of the law while claiming to uphold the values of the society to which they belong.
They operate independent of the law while claiming to uphold the values of the society to which they belong.
There is no evidence offered in any posts against it. Not even a little. This is your head canon, it's not anywhere on screen. It's very clear in every appearance in every show and movie that this is a government department, however off the books it might be. Presidents have been spied on in actual history. By elements in the Govt. And that's not even getting into the CIA or Hoovers FBI.
This is not "evidence" that it is not part of the Govt. It's crystal clear that it is and always was part of it. Not submitting reports or getting the green light on specific ops, which is how Sloan worded that, is only evidence that it is off the books. You are adding in things that are not there onscreen. He says autonomous department because it is a department of the Govt. Kirk is not shocked to learn that a Federation facility is actually used by Section 31, because it is a govt department.
So yes, if I were President, I would want to know from Section 31 how they let Oh slip thru the background checks.
That seems to be it. They have ways of operating legitimately and utilize assets to further their ends. That's why they blend in with Starfleet Intelligence so well.
That's a stretch of the point. A CIA op is a CIA op. Their operatives are part of the government even if some particular black box group/team operates off the books, and outside of the normal channels it is still part of the Govt.
You'd be surprised how many black ops happened without the Director knowing. That's why they were called "black ops." They often existed and operated without the consent of the agency and used slush funds to pay for their activities. So no, many actions carried out by agents back in the day were not CIA ops. They were ops carried out without official CIA sanction and even knowledge and often using non-employees.
I think I am just a little taken aback by the ....naivete? I am hearing about how it cant be the govt if it is secret. It cannot be the govt without vigorous oversight. It cannot be the govt if they undertake surveillance of govt officials and ministers. Really? Since when? The histories of the CIA, FBI, Gestapo, Stasi, KGB and many others just do not bear this out.
It's not a government agency. It's a group operating using the cover of serving the state. That's a completely different thing. It may have been different in the ENT Era when there was an actual Earth Starfleet Charter to adhere to but once the Federation began it appears that the agency became an unofficial cabal of likeminded individuals who used black ops and other covert activities to further what they saw as the needs of the UFP.
One can argue that they're quietly ignored because the authorities can't get rid of them without great risk to themselves but that they're just as official as the CIA or FBI? In the 23rd and 24th centuries? I'm not buying it.
One can argue that they're quietly ignored because the authorities can't get rid of them without great risk to themselves but that they're just as official as the CIA or FBI? In the 23rd and 24th centuries? I'm not buying it.
It's ALSO the Federation Charter not Earth Starfleet charter that has Section 31. They just have the exact same placement.
It seems like a govt agency. Someone else said that too: That maybe they started out as an arm of the State intelligence and national security apparatus, but are now different. Maybe, but that has not been established onscreen. Autonomous Department means off the books. So they can use Federation facilities as in ST:ID, and at least some high ranking persons, like Admiral Marcus, are aware of this. Resources, tech, facilities, etc.
The point with existing and historical agencies is that, the fact that some elements within them decide to spy on ministers and officials, does not mean they are not part of that same Govt. It could be that for 40 years, Presidents and Attorneys General exercised nominal control at best over Hoover and his FBI. That didnt mean the FBI is not part of the Govt. Hoover could spy on his bosses and still be within the Govt.
The point with existing and historical agencies is that, the fact that some elements within them decide to spy on ministers and officials, does not mean they are not part of that same Govt. It could be that for 40 years, Presidents and Attorneys General exercised nominal control at best over Hoover and his FBI. That didnt mean the FBI is not part of the Govt. Hoover could spy on his bosses and still be within the Govt.
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