Spoilers On Seven and sexuality

[Sidewinder]

Let's just say it: If it would be gratuitous with straight characters, it's gratuitous with bi characters. This just came straight outta' nowhere for us, the audience.

There was more connection between Elnor & Seven than with Seven and Raffi. And Elnor is the Harry Kim of this show.

This is exactly the point that I was trying to make. I don't care that they are together, I actually like the idea of gay/bi characters being represented more in Star Trek.

I care that it came completely out of nowhere. I don't remember one significant interaction between them. Even a conversation or something as simple as a smile or a look between them to foreshadow it.

As it is, it was just shoehorned in with 45 seconds left in the season.

 

[The Old Mixer]

Every relationship has to start somewhere...

 

[Rahul]

Every relationship has to start somewhere...

And if that somewhere is "hello, welcome aboard".

 

[AlanC9]

I care that it came completely out of nowhere. I don't remember one significant interaction between them. Even a conversation or something as simple as a smile or a look between them to foreshadow it.

I'm still not clear why this is a problem. It's not like we see everything the characters do all the time. I like it when stuff surprises me. But this is a YMMV thing.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I'm still not clear why this is a problem. It's not like we see everything the characters do all the time. I like it when stuff surprises me. But this is a YMMV thing.

Exactly. How many minutes of the limited 10 episodes do people want them to spend on developing the Raffi/Seven thing?

With Rios and Jurati it was badda-bing, badda-boom. It just happened.

 

[Mage]

I haven't read all 18 pages. Nor will I.

I was in a long term (11 years) relationship with a bisexual woman. One thing I learned is, bi-sexuality is very under- and misrepresented in media. Writers half of the time simply don't get it.

Also..... It was very clearly implied Seven and whatsherfacefromthatoneepisode were involved at one point.
We also don't know how many weeks went by after Picard died and he was resurrected. It's quite possible that in that time, Seven and Raffi formed a bond.

And if people are complaining that no indication was ever given for Raffi being bi..... People sometimes only realize this at a later age. Or are aware of it, but aren't involved with someone from their own gender until then, because they fall for personality over gender. So Raffi could have found many women very physically attractive but never their person. Until Seven.

 

[Ar-Pharazon]

I haven't read all 18 pages. Nor will I.

I was in a long term (11 years) relationship with a bisexual woman. One thing I learned is, bi-sexuality is very under- and misrepresented in media. Writers half of the time simply don't get it.

Also..... It was very clearly implied Seven and whatsherfacefromthatoneepisode were involved at one point.
We also don't know how many weeks went by after Picard died and he was resurrected. It's quite possible that in that time, Seven and Raffi formed a bond.

And if people are complaining that no indication was ever given for Raffi being bi..... People sometimes only realize this at a later age. Or are aware of it, but aren't involved with someone from their own gender until then, because they fall for personality over gender. So Raffi could have found many women very physically attractive but never their person. Until Seven.

I definitely felt like some time had passed. Even one or two weeks.

 

[DarthTimon]

In this day and age, it shouldn't matter as what sexuality anyone is, it staggers me that people still lose their minds over a pair of characters holding hands...
Moreover, the ones jumping on the implied connection between Raffi and Seven are projecting that they regard as a sign of a relationship, without any overt evidence. They held hands. Whilst I agree the scene suggested they have a thing, friends hold hands. The ones who are so threatened by a bi character are ironically projecting something which doesn't necessarily exist.

 

[Dukhat]

Star Trek: Lesbos

 

[Sidewinder]

Exactly. How many minutes of the limited 10 episodes do people want them to spend on developing the Raffi/Seven thing?

With Rios and Jurati it was badda-bing, badda-boom. It just happened.

I said it in my post. Something as simple as a smile or a look would have been fine. 10 seconds. If I missed it, that's on me.

I like surprises, but ones that make sense.

I'm fine with bisexual characters, they should be featured more often since it is 2399. But give me a hint that is where this is going. Don't just throw it in there at the end.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Agreed. But

Spoiler

apparently, the handholding was something that Ryan and Hurd came up with, so who knows, maybe it really means nothing at all. Or just friendship, whatever.
*shrug*

 

[The Old Mixer]

Everyone takes for granted that Geordi and Data were besties...but that relationship was dropped on us as one already established in universe in the third-aired episode of TNG, with no set-up whatsoever in the previous two episodes. We just had to assume that it had been established offscreen between episodes.

 

[rfmcdpei]

In this day and age, it shouldn't matter as what sexuality anyone is, it staggers me that people still lose their minds over a pair of characters holding hands...
Moreover, the ones jumping on the implied connection between Raffi and Seven are projecting that they regard as a sign of a relationship, without any overt evidence. They held hands. Whilst I agree the scene suggested they have a thing, friends hold hands. The ones who are so threatened by a bi character are ironically projecting something which doesn't necessarily exist.

Out of universe, Michael Chabon and the actors have been quite clear about this being an actual intimate relationship. Chabon has also said that he wrote Raffi's friend in Starfleet, who gave Picard the artefact permission, as her ex.

The show also phrased what was going on as being a relationship similar to that of Rios and Jurati. Couples look at each other in the way that friends do not.

Meanwhile, since Seven was introduced there have always been attempts to make her queer. Jeri Taylor even admitted that she tried to make her out but faced too much resistance.

At this stage, it would be rather more off to claim that the two are friends than to say they are in a relationship. The scene works that last way; everyone involved in the production of the scene was likewise clear about how it should work.

 

[plynch]

Apologies if this has been said ad nauseum upthread.
1. Things can develop quickly (she and Raffi). Or maybe it's flirtatious. Or a nothin'. Give 'em a break.
2. I like that her two possible same-sex relationships are understated and presented as just . . . normal. Not, HEY look, a gay relationship! It seems a step up from DSC IMHO.

 

[Orac Zen]

Did Seven and Raffi share a single scene before the finale? Did they have a single conversation one on one?? Out of the blue is an understatement.

That's why it floored me. Not that they make Seven gay/bi or whatever, just that there was no buildup to this relationship to Raffi at all. It was just stuck in that last shot out of nowhere. Unless there's just something i completely missed, from her earlier interactions with the La Sirena crew.

This was how it struck me as well. It was a very moment because it appeared out of nowhere - unless (as others have suggested) some time has passed since the whole Picard death / revival thing, in which case it becomes more organic and less something that was thrown in at the last moment.

Other than that I couldn't care less about it. Freaking out because fictional people (or real people, for that matter) are / may be something other than heterosexual is just daft (to put it very politely). If Seven / Ryan stays / recurs on the show (which would be brilliant) and they go somewhere with this, that would be great - so long as it doesn't become all either character is about (this post says it all, really) and Raffi becomes less of a cipher and more of an actual person. We've already seen Seven involved with a barely animated fence post and (quite possibly) a psychotic, murderous bitch. Seeing her in a healthy relationship with an actual person would be a Good Thing, whatever the gender of said actual person.

It does raise a smile, reading earlier posts in this thread, that people were sure that Seven and Bjayzl were platonic friends, even after their dialogue made it screamingly obvious that they were vengeful exes. I also saw a LOT of this on Twitter, too.

A bunch of heterosexual people are willing to twist themselves like pretzels not to see the gay.

Or it could simply have been the fact that people can arrive at different conclusions after watching the same thing(s). I for one have never, ever seen the Janeway / Chuckles thing that so many people are so certain is so obvious that anyone who doesn't see it is blind. I saw the Seven / Bjayzl thing as a friendship gone badly wrong, but also saw it working either way. I certainly was not "twisting myself like a pretzel" to deny "the gay". I just saw something a different way. It doesn't make me (and others who arrived at the same conclusion I did) homophobic or anything else along those lines, which seems to be the (quite unnecessary and offensive) implication here.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

2. I like that her two possible same-sex relationships are understated and presented as just . . . normal. Not, HEY look, a gay relationship!

That's what I want, too. But trust me, I'd have the same reaction if it was Raffi and Rios (who actually had far more interactions, so ... bad example...) - if it were a man and a woman with the history R7 have had on the show. Which is simply, hey, give us at least, like, one or two short scene with flirtatious or lingering looks or something like that!

Then again, while I'm not a huge DSC fan, I thought Stamets/ Culbert was handled wll, not at lall like "look! GAY!" Of course, they had to "kill" Culbert before we got to know him well, but that's another story.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

How come we didnt get 18 pages of "I dont have a problem with it BUT" when Jurati and Rios hooked up

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

How come we didnt get 18 pages of "I dont have a problem with it BUT" when Jurati and Rios hooked up

I hope you don't count me in there, I'm close to shipping them!

 

[DarthTimon]

Out of universe, Michael Chabon and the actors have been quite clear about this being an actual intimate relationship. Chabon has also said that he wrote Raffi's friend in Starfleet, who gave Picard the artefact permission, as her ex.

The show also phrased what was going on as being a relationship similar to that of Rios and Jurati. Couples look at each other in the way that friends do not.

Meanwhile, since Seven was introduced there have always been attempts to make her queer. Jeri Taylor even admitted that she tried to make her out but faced too much resistance.

At this stage, it would be rather more off to claim that the two are friends than to say they are in a relationship. The scene works that last way; everyone involved in the production of the scene was likewise clear about how it should work.

Oh I agree that the relationship is most easily framed as a romantic one. I have no problem with that. I find it hilarious that there are people out there who can still get outrageous at two women or two men being more than friends. Who does it hurt?

In the case of Seven, I think a lot of the outrage is because she never gave any sign she was bi, but then again, as we all know, she spent most of her years as a Borg drone, and was only just starting to open up about who really was in VOY's final season. The fanboys who liked to objective her (and Jeri Ryan) as a sex object cannot stand that Seven might be bi.

 

[DarthTimon]

How come we didnt get 18 pages of "I dont have a problem with it BUT" when Jurati and Rios hooked up

A very good point. The rather sudden arrival of that relationship didn't cause anyone to bat an eye.