Spoilers On Seven and sexuality

[Sakonna]

I don't think the Seven/Raffi moment required any build-up or set-up, in that I interpreted the moment we saw to be the beginning. This wasn't the announcement that now they are in a relationship, it was the first moment where they sparked and made their attractions known, and where that goes next is for season 2 to tell us.
(If I'm right on that, they could have made it less confusing by giving us a clearer answer on what happened with the cube and the xB's. I also assumed Seven was on the Sirena because this was the only option for her to travel off the planet, not "she's moving in with her true love")

Also, I'm probably alone with that, but - considering Raffi had a serious drinking problem, I was appalled of her just doing shots with Seven in a teenager-thinks-that's-cool kind of way.

This was my issue -- the whole sequence was presented very much as "HERE'S THE HAPPY ENDING!", which is lovely -- except that it includes the tortured, troubled alcoholic slamming back shots like she's on spring break?!? Wha??

How do we know that? Kirk had his issues, Scotty too. Besides, what makes having a shot a drinking problem? This is like the holding hands thing. One small item blown out of all proportion.

They have made it very clear that Raffi is an addict who is struggling to stop. This came up explicitly in most of the episodes.

Obviously, just any old someone having a shot does not mean that person has a drinking problem.

When the context is a character who is well-established as an addict, who has been struggling to stay sober for several weeks, they're not just "having a shot"

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Oh yes, I do agree that the way they are portraying Raffi's addictions is problematic. And so was her doing shots with Seven like it wasn't a big deal. Sigh.

 

[Gov Kodos]

They have made it very clear that Raffi is an addict who is struggling to stop. This came up explicitly in most of the episodes.

Obviously, just any old someone having a shot does not mean that person has a drinking problem.

When the context is a character who is well-established as an addict, who has been struggling to stay sober for several weeks, they're not just "having a shot"

I was responding to those that said Seven had a drinking problem which is what got started off here.

It's heavily implied that Seven has a drinking problem, also. I...hope they don't both become enablers of each other...

 

[JirinPanthosa]

Seven could easily be given any sexuality. We know in one future she ended up with a male tree. But that was at a time she was still emotionally immature and there may not have been available homosexual females on Voyager even if she suddenly realized she was attracted. Maybe that's why it didn't work out with Chakotay.

 

[Sakonna]

I liked it a lot, but there's one thing that bothers me about it: the fact that the entire crew seemed awfully forgiving of Agnes murdering Maddox. They basically just slapped her on the wrist and said "Shame on you!" as though murdering someone is something people commonly do.....as if she just made a minor mistake. The hell?

Dax assisting in the murder of the Albino.
Garak murdering a Romulan ambassador and Sisko kept working with him.
Kor threatening to wipe out an entire population and use of slave labor camps and becomes an ally in DS9.

Murder in Star Trek is only a big deal if the plot says so.

There's also Worf's various murders of prominent Klingon leaders. And the deaths Kira was responsible for in the resistance.

Though I have to say I agree with @The Rock's criticism. I think the emotional implications of these earlier murders were much more well-explored in their respective episodes, and I felt clear that Dax and Sisko would be haunted forever by their actions, even if it was never explicitly referenced again. Much story was spun from Kira reckoning with her resistance fighter past. And Worf and Garak, we understood how they saw their actions as justified, and thus they would not be troubled going forward.

But with the Maddox murder, aside from the other characters reactions, it seems like Jurati herself should be far more wracked with guilt and devastation than she is, were she anything approaching a remotely decent human being. She murdered a mentor and ex-lover, a true genius, because he was part of a cause... that she herself then embraced, I think mere days later. How does she seemingly feel so fine about it, so untroubled? Why is she not shattered by her mistake? I loved her character at the beginning of the season, but the ease with which she bounced back from this... now I feel repulsed by her.

They can save it, though, by leaning hard into the gray. I think the key is in that line she has in the finale, about thinking she'd be a terrible double agent, but realizing she's actually great at it. If the Jurati arc is some version of "cheerful 'Breaking Bad'", I think they're onto something.

I was responding to those that said Seven had a drinking problem.

Oh, sorry, the post you quoted, above the comment of yours I quoted, was referencing Raffi's issues, not Seven's. I agree that there is no evidence for Seven having a drinking problem in anything we saw on "Picard."

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

Why do so many people here think these things need loads of build up and automatically lead to serious relationships.

Maybe the night before that scene 2 women felt attracted to each other withouth much backstory had sex and were now enjoying a moment and may never do it again.

Its happened to plenty of people I know

 

[Gov Kodos]

Oh, sorry, the post you quoted, above the comment of yours I quoted, was referencing Raffi's issues, not Seven's. I agree that there is no evidence for Seven having a drinking problem in anything we saw on "Picard."

I posted fast and without the context of the previous posts about Seven so that did look entirely out of context. I think there is a conversation to be had about what constitutes a substance abuse problem in trek versus today, though. The TNG era does seem to have a zero amount attitude about alcohol and everything else unless it's culturally protected like French wine.

 

[Rahul]

There's also Worf's various murders of prominent Klingon leaders. And the deaths Kira was responsible for in the resistance.

Though I have to say I agree with @The Rock's criticism. I think the emotional implications of these earlier murders were much more well-explored in their respective episodes, and I felt clear that Dax and Sisko would be haunted forever by their actions, even if it was never explicitly referenced again. Much story was spun from Kira reckoning with her resistance fighter past. And Worf and Garak, we understood how they saw their actions as justified, and thus they would not be troubled going forward.

But with the Maddox murder, aside from the other characters reactions, it seems like Jurati herself should be far more wracked with guilt and devastation than she is, were she anything approaching a remotely decent human being. She murdered a mentor and ex-lover, a true genius, because he was part of a cause... that she herself then embraced, I think mere days later. How does she seemingly feel so fine about it, so untroubled? Why is she not shattered by her mistake? I loved her character at the beginning of the season, but the ease with which she bounced back from this... now I feel repulsed by her.

They can save it, though, by leaning hard into the gray. I think the key is in that line she has in the finale, about thinking she'd be a terrible double agent, but realizing she's actually great at it. If the Jurati arc is some version of "cheerful 'Breaking Bad'", I think they're onto something.



Oh, sorry, the post you quoted, above the comment of yours I quoted, was referencing Raffi's issues, not Seven's. I agree that there is no evidence for Seven having a drinking problem in anything we saw on "Picard."

The weird thing is - it would have been an absolute no-brainer to completely (legally) absolve Jurati!

She was under the influence of a Vulcan mind meld. Normally, in Trek - murders don't count of you were under mind-control.

They just needed to have said that. They still could have her all struggling with the emotional fall-out of what she did - because she did it, and she has clear memory of doing it.

But that they never spend any time to actually talk about this moment ever again speaks volumes how this show weighs shocking moments over consistent characterisations.

 

[TimeIsAPredator]

The word thing is - or would have been an absolute no-brainer to completely absolve Jurati!

She was under the influence of a Vulcan mind meld. Normally, in Trek - murders don't count of you were under mind-control.

They just needed to have said that. They still could have her all struggling with the emotional fall-out of what she did. But that they never spend any time to actually talk about this moment ever again speaks volumes.

Pretty sure it was mentioned loads after and she was a shaking mess especially after she tried to commit suicide

 

[Sakonna]

The word thing is - or would have been an absolute no-brainer to completely absolve Jurati!

She was under the influence of a Vulcan mind meld. Normally, in Trek - murders don't count of you were under mind-control.

They just needed to have said that. They still could have her all struggling with the emotional fall-out of what she did. But that they never spend any time to actually talk about this moment ever again speaks volumes.

I agree that this is super strange -- it feels like they want Agnes to just be innocent, they EASILY could have made her innocent with just one or two tweaked lines of dialogue -- but instead they clearly established that she still had free will and chose to murder. Their storytelling choices in this murder plotline are so peculiarly out-of-sync.

 

[thribs]

Anyway, Seven can do better.

 

[fireproof78]

Why do so many people here think these things need loads of build up and automatically lead to serious relationships.

Maybe the night before that scene 2 women felt attracted to each other withouth much backstory had sex and were now enjoying a moment and may never do it again.

Its happened to plenty of people I know

Because I need more in my fiction.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

Why do so many people here think these things need loads of build up and automatically lead to serious relationships.

Maybe the night before that scene 2 women felt attracted to each other withouth much backstory had sex and were now enjoying a moment and may never do it again.

Its happened to plenty of people I know

sometimes hot people just meet and bang

In my case, maybe it's just me or a cultural thing, but this intertwining of hands seems very intimate (beyond the physical) and highly symbolic of something deeper. It's quite possible it wasn't intended that way, though.

That said, even if it was just a ONS, or "friendship with benefits", yes, I do need a little buildup. One or two scenes with lingering looks may have sufficed. If not, why bother showing the hand thing at all? Just show them play a game and then later reference that the did the deed... or not.

Anyway, that's just a minor quibble for me. And certainly not the biggest case of "hey, are there some scenes I missed?!" that this show has.

 

[Rahul]

Let's just say it: If it would be gratuitous with straight characters, it's gratuitous with bi characters. This just came straight outta' nowhere for us, the audience.

There was more connection between Elnor & Seven than with Seven and Raffi. And Elnor is the Harry Kim of this show.

 

[fireproof78]

And Elnor is the Harry Kim of this show.

Hey! That's offensive!

No one is like Harry Kim (duplicate).

 

[AlanC9]

There's also Worf's various murders of prominent Klingon leaders. And the deaths Kira was responsible for in the resistance.

Is "murder" the correct term there? Murder is unlawful killing, and I'm not aware of Worf breaking laws in the relevant jurisdictions.

 

[AlanC9]

Let's just say it: If it would be gratuitous with straight characters, it's gratuitous with bi characters. This just came straight outta' nowhere for us, the audience.

There was more connection between Elnor & Seven than with Seven and Raffi. And Elnor is the Harry Kim of this show.

I agree that the sexuality isn't relevant, but I don't think this scene maps onto the "gratuitous" concept very well.

It is interesting how the show sometimes lets you see something coming from a long way off, and sometimes just drops something out of the blue. I like this, but YMMV.

 

[SpocksOddSocks]

With the Seven/Raffi thing - was I the only one thinking "Aah. Wasn't expecting that, but it feels likely".

There were a few scenes on the finale that I felt didn't feel quite right, but that certainly wasn't one of them.

 

[cooleddie74]

Anyway, Seven can do better.

That's been her M.O. since about, oh, 2377.

 

[indianatrekker26]

I also wonder if there were any scenes between seven and raffi that were left in the cutting room floor. And when you think of it, seven and raffi do have some things in common. In different ways they both lost important people in their lives. Raffi's son disowned her and seven lost icheb, the closest person she had to a son. I could see them bonding over that.