Care to explain? It's not like the show hadn't referenced earlier episodes and themes a lot of times.
I can see no fault with this theory. It would explain a lot of things.
Let's speculate on the deep, dark secret
- Thread starter El Maestro
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I can see no fault with this theory. It would explain a lot of things.
And those memories could have stayed in McCoy, and even more relevant, in Picard since Sarek was well aware of everything.
The idea that the Zhat Vash’s big secret is about the Seb-Cheneb (Destroyer) doesn’t make sense, because it’s known both by the Tal Shiar and Zhat Vash….if correct, then the Zhat Vash’s big secret must be something else.
WARNING: I speculate on whether one particular leak is true. If true, then it is a spoiler and you should not read the last section, if you don’t want to know. But it's safe to read until the next warning.
In the attack at Chateau Picard (ep.3) we're not told if was by the Tal Shiar or Zhat Vash. But, the Romulan soldier’s penultimate words before committing suicide were, “you’ll never find her before we do”, which means his side (whoever they are) is still looking for her.
But we know that Oh, Narissa and Narek already know that Soji is on the cube, and since Narissa has already admitted to being Zhat Vash (ep.7) that means the soldier was Tal Shiar, and since his last words were “She is the end of all. She is the Destroyer” then it’s not a secret..as the Tal Shiar are privy to it.
In other words, the Zhat Vash have some other secret hidden away.
This makes sense, because we know that Dr Jurati was shown the link between sentient androids and the destruction of everything, yet it wasn’t such a devastating secret that she felt the need to kill herself (even if it was enough for her to kill Maddox - terminator style).
Compare this to Soji’s conversation with the Romulan XB, Ramdha, (ep.3). When Ramdha finally recognised Soji as the Seb-Cheneb her response was not to kill Soji, but to try and kill herself…in the same way as the vulcans/romulans in the vision preview of ep.8.
Ramdha's reaction is a completely different to the same information...the question is why?
WARNING LEAK/SPOILER BELOW
===========================
I think my analysis above supports the theory/leak that the Zhat Vash secret is the origin story about Romulans being sentient flesh and blood androids created by the Vulcans. Here’s why:
Question: why would Romulans, like Ramdha and those in the vision, try and commit suicide upon learning the Zhat Vash secret?
Sure it’s horrible to learn you’ve been living a lie, but Soji and Dahj never tried to commit suicide when they found out. And Dr Jurati also didn't go mad.
Answer: I think they commit suicide, because Dahj & Soji are the next stage of evolution for the Romulans. I think someone helped Maddox to take Dr Soong’s work on Data & Lore and combine it with the Romulan’s biological-technological interface to create the twins.
Once a Romulan discovers this truth, then in order to prevent the Seb-Cheneb prophecy, it’s not enough to kill Dahj & Soji, but everything that went into creating them must be destroyed i.e. Maddox, Dr Soong's work (Data, Lore, Juliana), and all the Romulans. Not sure where this leaves the Vulcans.
This explains why Ramdha tried to kill herself instead of Soji. She knew she couldn’t kill Soji (as she’s too powerful), so suicide was the next best thing. The rational choice is for all Romulans to commit suicide upon learning that *they* are the first step in the destruction of everything.
In the ep.8 preview, we see a ceremony in which Oh presides. I believe that ceremony is the rite of passage to enter the Zhat Vash, and only those few who can see beyond the logic/fatalism of suicide, get to join.
In some ways, this ability of the survivors to ignore the cognitive dissonance caused by this truth is very much a human trait (think politicians). Thus, the Zhat Vash themselves could be an evolutionary step for the Romulans. And of course their mission is to ensure the destruction of sentient androids.
It also explains the destruction of Romulus and the attack on Mars…instant reduction in Romulan population.
So, the twist is the Zhat Vash are the good guys…they’re trying to save the Galaxy.
But here’s the other twist. We know the Borg discovered the Seb-Cheneb secret, when they assimilated Ramdha and also discovered that she and the other Romulans weren’t 100% biological. But are the Borg good guys or bad guys?
Good: The Borg aren’t suicidal and may have been seeking to work with the Zhat Vash (or in secret) to stop the prophecy - if true then who created Dahj & Soji?
OR Bad: the Borg are power crazy and manipulated Maddox to create Dahj and Soji in order to assimilate them and rule the universe even to destruction. But will Soji and her kind prove too powerful for even the Borg to assimilate?
And what of free-will? If Soji and her kind are truly sentient, then they have the agency granted by free-will, which they can chose to create a new path for themselves could stop the prophecy coming true.
WARNING: I speculate on whether one particular leak is true. If true, then it is a spoiler and you should not read the last section, if you don’t want to know. But it's safe to read until the next warning.
In the attack at Chateau Picard (ep.3) we're not told if was by the Tal Shiar or Zhat Vash. But, the Romulan soldier’s penultimate words before committing suicide were, “you’ll never find her before we do”, which means his side (whoever they are) is still looking for her.
But we know that Oh, Narissa and Narek already know that Soji is on the cube, and since Narissa has already admitted to being Zhat Vash (ep.7) that means the soldier was Tal Shiar, and since his last words were “She is the end of all. She is the Destroyer” then it’s not a secret..as the Tal Shiar are privy to it.
In other words, the Zhat Vash have some other secret hidden away.
This makes sense, because we know that Dr Jurati was shown the link between sentient androids and the destruction of everything, yet it wasn’t such a devastating secret that she felt the need to kill herself (even if it was enough for her to kill Maddox - terminator style).
Compare this to Soji’s conversation with the Romulan XB, Ramdha, (ep.3). When Ramdha finally recognised Soji as the Seb-Cheneb her response was not to kill Soji, but to try and kill herself…in the same way as the vulcans/romulans in the vision preview of ep.8.
Ramdha's reaction is a completely different to the same information...the question is why?
WARNING LEAK/SPOILER BELOW
===========================
I think my analysis above supports the theory/leak that the Zhat Vash secret is the origin story about Romulans being sentient flesh and blood androids created by the Vulcans. Here’s why:
Question: why would Romulans, like Ramdha and those in the vision, try and commit suicide upon learning the Zhat Vash secret?
Sure it’s horrible to learn you’ve been living a lie, but Soji and Dahj never tried to commit suicide when they found out. And Dr Jurati also didn't go mad.
Answer: I think they commit suicide, because Dahj & Soji are the next stage of evolution for the Romulans. I think someone helped Maddox to take Dr Soong’s work on Data & Lore and combine it with the Romulan’s biological-technological interface to create the twins.
Once a Romulan discovers this truth, then in order to prevent the Seb-Cheneb prophecy, it’s not enough to kill Dahj & Soji, but everything that went into creating them must be destroyed i.e. Maddox, Dr Soong's work (Data, Lore, Juliana), and all the Romulans. Not sure where this leaves the Vulcans.
This explains why Ramdha tried to kill herself instead of Soji. She knew she couldn’t kill Soji (as she’s too powerful), so suicide was the next best thing. The rational choice is for all Romulans to commit suicide upon learning that *they* are the first step in the destruction of everything.
In the ep.8 preview, we see a ceremony in which Oh presides. I believe that ceremony is the rite of passage to enter the Zhat Vash, and only those few who can see beyond the logic/fatalism of suicide, get to join.
In some ways, this ability of the survivors to ignore the cognitive dissonance caused by this truth is very much a human trait (think politicians). Thus, the Zhat Vash themselves could be an evolutionary step for the Romulans. And of course their mission is to ensure the destruction of sentient androids.
It also explains the destruction of Romulus and the attack on Mars…instant reduction in Romulan population.
So, the twist is the Zhat Vash are the good guys…they’re trying to save the Galaxy.
But here’s the other twist. We know the Borg discovered the Seb-Cheneb secret, when they assimilated Ramdha and also discovered that she and the other Romulans weren’t 100% biological. But are the Borg good guys or bad guys?
Good: The Borg aren’t suicidal and may have been seeking to work with the Zhat Vash (or in secret) to stop the prophecy - if true then who created Dahj & Soji?
OR Bad: the Borg are power crazy and manipulated Maddox to create Dahj and Soji in order to assimilate them and rule the universe even to destruction. But will Soji and her kind prove too powerful for even the Borg to assimilate?
And what of free-will? If Soji and her kind are truly sentient, then they have the agency granted by free-will, which they can chose to create a new path for themselves could stop the prophecy coming true.
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Plus, Chabon is a hugh fan of TOS, so I can see him digging deep to pull out something like this.
IDK, it does seem fanfic-y, but at the same time the broad strokes are plausible as a ST story.
So does a lot of fanfic
Interesting observations regarding the different behavior kill or suicide, with some possible arguments for it.
Really hope the Romulans aren't artificial lifeforms created by the Vulcans though.
Not having seen DSC (though I do intend to. I didn't hate the first episode, I just didn't like it enough to subscribe to cbs until Picard came along), I am a little lost with some of the speculation here. If a connection is made that we can "get" without having seen DSC, it might be a smart idea, and it's not a crazy thought to link the two shows. It might even make me more eager to catch up. That said, I can see a lot of Picard-only fans complaining that DSC is being shoved down their throats. We'll see what happens!
Here's my crazy theory:
- Dr. Soong did not create Data from scratch. In fact, he had access to classified Federation files on artificial intelligence. Therefore, Data and his brothers were created from "blueprints" used to create Control.
- Zhat Vash is a organization originally founded by vulcans whose main goal is to protect all life in the galaxy from internal (Borg, non-corporeal beings) and external (kelvans, species 8472, etc) threats. It has tentacles on a myriad of organizations, like the Section 31, Tal Shiar, among others.
- Zhat Vash exists both in the prime and in the mirror universes, but in the mirror universe it was dedicated to control the Terran Empire (which explains vulcans being accepted into the Empire and one even becoming the Emperor).
- Commodore Oh is half-terran, that's why she uses sunglasses (remember, terrans suffer from photosensitivity).
- The visions Oh and other members of the Zhat Vash are experiencing about the destruction of all life in the universe are not from the prime universe, but from the mirror one.
- By the end of the 24th century, mirror universe's Milky Way is the stage of a galaxy-wide conflict between an alliance of empires (Terran, Dominion, the "good" version of the Borg) and the genocidal synths who aim to destroy all natural life in the galaxy so they can seize control of all sources of energy (thus becoming a type III civilization on the Kardashev scale). As of 2399, the alliance is loosing the war and trying to figure a way to bring some of it's people to the prime universe.
- Control was inadvertedly taken to the mirror universe by the Discovery crew. The Soong bloodline in the MU was "discontinued" after Arik Soong refused to work for the Terran Empire. All the synths created by the Terran Empire were a direct offspring of Control.
- The Zhat Vash are preventing the prime universe from having the same fate of the mirror universe. Control was contained by the Discovery crew, but it still lives inside the synths created by Soong and Maddox.
- They feared that Soji and Dahj would act as leaders of the synths in a future rebellion similar to what ocurred in the MU, then decided to take drastic measures to force the prohibition.
- The "great secret" is basically the fact that life in the galaxy is unavoidable doomed, either for the rise of the synths or for some external threat that it's only temporarily avoided by the galactic barrier. The Zhat Vash can only delay this ultimate fate.
- Picard will have to choose between letting Soji live despite the fears of the synth rebellion or sacrificing her and any possible legacy of his friend Data in order to delay the annihilation.
- Dr. Soong did not create Data from scratch. In fact, he had access to classified Federation files on artificial intelligence. Therefore, Data and his brothers were created from "blueprints" used to create Control.
- Zhat Vash is a organization originally founded by vulcans whose main goal is to protect all life in the galaxy from internal (Borg, non-corporeal beings) and external (kelvans, species 8472, etc) threats. It has tentacles on a myriad of organizations, like the Section 31, Tal Shiar, among others.
- Zhat Vash exists both in the prime and in the mirror universes, but in the mirror universe it was dedicated to control the Terran Empire (which explains vulcans being accepted into the Empire and one even becoming the Emperor).
- Commodore Oh is half-terran, that's why she uses sunglasses (remember, terrans suffer from photosensitivity).
- The visions Oh and other members of the Zhat Vash are experiencing about the destruction of all life in the universe are not from the prime universe, but from the mirror one.
- By the end of the 24th century, mirror universe's Milky Way is the stage of a galaxy-wide conflict between an alliance of empires (Terran, Dominion, the "good" version of the Borg) and the genocidal synths who aim to destroy all natural life in the galaxy so they can seize control of all sources of energy (thus becoming a type III civilization on the Kardashev scale). As of 2399, the alliance is loosing the war and trying to figure a way to bring some of it's people to the prime universe.
- Control was inadvertedly taken to the mirror universe by the Discovery crew. The Soong bloodline in the MU was "discontinued" after Arik Soong refused to work for the Terran Empire. All the synths created by the Terran Empire were a direct offspring of Control.
- The Zhat Vash are preventing the prime universe from having the same fate of the mirror universe. Control was contained by the Discovery crew, but it still lives inside the synths created by Soong and Maddox.
- They feared that Soji and Dahj would act as leaders of the synths in a future rebellion similar to what ocurred in the MU, then decided to take drastic measures to force the prohibition.
- The "great secret" is basically the fact that life in the galaxy is unavoidable doomed, either for the rise of the synths or for some external threat that it's only temporarily avoided by the galactic barrier. The Zhat Vash can only delay this ultimate fate.
- Picard will have to choose between letting Soji live despite the fears of the synth rebellion or sacrificing her and any possible legacy of his friend Data in order to delay the annihilation.
Oh, I forgot my wildest theory: the EMH is actually Q.
Here's my theory on what happened to Rios' old ship:
There was a synth crewmember (or several) which went mad and killed the original captain.
That's why Starfleet deleted all records of it.
There was a synth crewmember (or several) which went mad and killed the original captain.
The human Rios, meaning the one we're seeing is a hologram.
That's why Starfleet deleted all records of it.
It's a very interesting theory, and nicely constructed. However, the issue I immediately have is that Starfleet medical personnel, including Dr Beverly Crusher, have had access to Romulans bodies, both dead and alive. Surely someone would have detected that they were androids. Yes, Julianna Tainer had systems that gave human readings to basic, non-invasive medical scans. But when her arm came off, her circuitry was exposed. Dr Crusher had a badly injured Romulan under her care in the episode The Enemy, and performed invasive enough procedures on him (including genetic testing on his blood to determine that only Worf's blood would work for a transfusion) that she would have detected his android nature if it existed. Sela was the daughter of human Tasha Yar and a Romulan general; therefore interspecies interbreeding is possible.
If Romulans are biological androids sophisticated enough to do all that, then they actually are a biological race, not androids as we know them in Star Trek. Sorry, but your theory doesn't hold up. But it was a nice try.
ffs, not everyone in that show is a hologram
That sounds like something a hologram would say.
Sometimes I feel like a hologram.
"Please state the nature of the moderation emergency!"
"Please state the nature of the moderation emergency!"
Except for those that are secret synths, obviously. And those who are secret holographic synths.
If Rios is a hologram, how can he go off the ship without a projector?
And why would he have a chunk of metal sticking out of his shoulder when we first saw him. I think that detail was actually placed specifically so we knew he wasn't a hologram.
