Star Trek Picard is not Star Trek

[Thomas Elliot]

But Roddenberry was an opportunist, and when he started seeing the success in syndication and heard fans talking about the "positive vision" as a reason for their passion...he doubled down on that. Then you got the preaching in the convention circuit, the interviews, and ultimately the antiseptic, sterile philosophy he tried to interject into TNG.

Yes, I've heard that he pitched it as a space western. However, whatever the reasons for it's evolution, it sounds like it was more than just opportunistic reasons. Why fight so hard when it came the TOS films when they were already money makers. He must have believed in these ideals to some degree.
And so it was the original fans of the original TOS series that misinterpreted the show as having a "positive vision," who didn't see it as a typical action series?
I think this "sterile philosophy" is partly what helped make TNG memorable to so many people and made it the most successful of all Star Trek television shows.

One of the greatest franchise myths is that the basis of TNG was "exploring the galaxy." I think years ago someone posted an analysis that showed that less than 20% of TNG episodes were actually about exploring. Even when the episode may have started off about exploring, it typically morphed into something else by the end of act one.

I'd be surprised if that were true but maybe. Most of the episodes I recall seem like they were encountering something strange and interesting while in space, encountering new and different cultures.

Diplomatic missions, colony check-up duties, defense/patrol, rescue missions, time travel/anomaly tomfoolery, Starfleet milk runs, holodeck schlock, etc far outweighed exploration.

Yeah, some of these aren't charting new areas of the galaxy, but they would fall in line with the opening line of "explore strange new worlds, to seek out new life and new civilizations, to boldy go where noone has gone before." I'd expect that diplomatic missions to alien worlds, time travel, and encountering holograms developing sentience would fall in line with that mission statement. Even the first holodeck episode ended up about saving an alien race's home world, whose inhabitants society was completely based on binary numbers.

I'd go so far as to say that when compared to the content, tone, and pacing of the rest of the franchise (series and films), it's actually the TNG series which is the outlier.

So really it's The Motion Picture and TNG that's NOT Star Trek.

I wonder if Star Wars has the same issue. The prequels are generally considered to be awful, yet I wonder if a generation of kids who grew up on them will think THAT'S how Star Wars is supposed to be, and gets upset when Midichlorians are ignored in new ones, or find fault when there's comedy injected into them.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

On Earth, right now, March 2020, 99% of the people look human. Why is it not easy for us to be flawless?

What about the 1%!?!

(Was a reference to the one percent intended, by the way?)

 

[DaveyNY]

Why fight so hard when it came the TOS films when they were already money makers. He must have believed in these ideals to some degree.

Not really.
It was because Gene had pretty much been pushed out of the production part of the movies after The Motion Picture.
He wasn't really fighting for a specific "vision", he was fighting to wrest control back.
He just used the "Vision" thing as an excuse.
(unfortunately, he let it go to his head either due to anger or old age or both)

He was always actually fighting to get a bigger piece of the pie.

 

[Nightdiamond]

The last few pages feel really circle jerky nevertheless. This thread needs a good argument why Star Trek isn't Star Trek atm

I wonder if Star Wars has the same issue.

All right, devil's advocate argument.

To me, Star Wars Rogue One, does not feel like Star Wars. It doesn't look or sound like Star Wars. Everything in it is gloomy looking. It was like the movie that everyone says is awesome, but only because of the Darth Vader scene at the end, but otherwise you don't really get it.

Plus, it was successful at the box office, (Like Picard is successful now) but you could see the weakness starting to build in the franchise until it was Solo that took the hit for it eventually.

The newer Star Wars movies are very divisive. It seems like the main reason they made money was because its fans are just eager to see anything Star Wars even if they don't really like it. (Honestly)

To be honest, Picard really doesn't feel like Star Trek either. I'm not a fan of the pacing and plot details either.

But the difference with Picard for me is, it's actually refreshing and interesting to see these characters acting more differently than what we would have seen had this been a full TNG 90's style sequel.

TNG and its era, had a conformist element to it and the characters were really limited if you think about it.

This may sound crazy, but it's refreshing (or interesting ) to see friends curse and joke on the job, wear corn rolls in their hair, wear clothes with actual collars, smoke space dope, or see Riker try to cook pizza while sounding a lot more down to earth than he did on the TNG show.

The setting may be a little messed up, but I find some of the characters charming and interesting. So far, I like watching it. If they manage to mess this one up down the road, I'll be surprised.

 

[Roboturner913]

I wonder if Star Wars has the same issue. The prequels are generally considered to be awful, yet I wonder if a generation of kids who grew up on them will think THAT'S how Star Wars is supposed to be, and gets upset when Midichlorians are ignored in new ones, or find fault when there's comedy injected into them.

My kids are bored to death by the original trilogy. They think The Force Awakens is the best and most fun SW movie, followed by Phantom Menace.

I don't suspect that will change for them when they become adults. The same way Dazed and Confused will always be, to me, a better movie than American Graffiti, while my dad feels the exact opposite. These things resonate for us in our own time because they are a reflection of our own time. You can't appreciate someone else's time nearly so easily.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

Not really.
It was because Gene had pretty much been pushed out of the production part of the movies after The Motion Picture.
He wasn't really fighting for a specific "vision", he was fighting to wrest control back.
He just used the "Vision" thing as an excuse.
(unfortunately, he let it go to his head either due to anger or old age or both)

He was always actually fighting to get a bigger piece of the pie.

But he got more control back when TNG started. Why push for a particular, consistent vision if that was just a ruse to get control back. Once he had it, why not just do whatever it take to make the machine and take credit? He must have had some personal belief in this aspirational future depiction.

I'm looking more into the relationship with Roddenberry and the TOS films. The general impression though is he was against all the TOS films except his own! There's specific criticisms he has with TUC for example which I agree with, but I haven't yet seen what particular issues he had with the story of TVH, which I would think would be closer to his vision, or closer to to what some fans would expect. It was Nimoy and the producer's idea to NOT go with a clear-cut villain. That and Nimoy's insistence of not having Spock resort to typical physical violence demonstrates that this impression of Star Trek was gestalt effect of different people's visions at different times that culminated in one single impression for a section of fandom.
TMP has the SF, exploration down perfectly but the overall interraction of the crew is kind of cold and definitely has a different and unfamiliar tone compared to the tv show. These characters are fascinating to watch but I don't know if I'd want to have them in my life.
TWOK has the heart and better written characters but an over reliance on action. These are characters I'd like to be around and have as friends.

 

[Thomas Elliot]

But the difference with Picard for me is, it's actually refreshing and interesting to see these characters acting more differently than what we would have seen had this been a full TNG 90's style sequel.

That reminds me of when DS9 and GENERATIONS came out.
I remember telling a friend in school at the time that DS9 felt more realistic because of the way Sisko interracted with his son in the first episode. TNG was more stuffy at the time, and I thought it was cool that these characters, at least these two in DS9 seemed like real people I would encounter in real life.
ST: Generations was also appealing at the time, to see Data saying stuff like, "Oh shit!" because in real life, people might say that when an accident or something crazy might occur. It was like anything from our childhoods transitioning to the big screen, being unshackled by limitations. Oh wow, more realistic.
Now though, I find the GEN to be very cliched, and DS9 interractions a little too conventional.
One's not necessarily better than the other. TNG was probably refreshing at the time when smart-ass action-comedy dialogue was common, and when GEN and DS9 started, that was considered refreshing to see more casual-style dialogue and interactions. And now we're back to some fans finding the TNG way refreshing again, including myself.
You're never going to please everyone, and you gotta switch things up to at the right times.

This may sound crazy, but it's refreshing (or interesting ) to see friends curse and joke on the job, wear corn rolls in their hair, wear clothes with actual collars, smoke space dope, or see Riker try to cook pizza while sounding a lot more down to earth than he did on the TNG show.

It's a great novelty, just as is the one where they don't need money in the future. I personally don't like some of these sudden changes. To me it comes across as gimmicky, like a kid just learning to curse for the first time. But for other viewers, it probably just comes across as naturalistic dialogue. If PIC was all bad AND had these changes, that's one thing. But the show overall is of a high quality, and it was hard for me not to enjoy the reunion of Picard, Troi and Riker. If these new changes resonate with other fans, I'm happy for them. Whatever I dislike doesn't matter too much because there's always 7 seasons of TNG to rewatch. All Good Things come to an end. If they didn't, they'd go stale. I'm happy PIC is switching things up.

The setting may be a little messed up, but I find some of the characters charming and interesting. So far, I like watching it. If they manage to mess this one up down the road, I'll be surprised.

Yes, I'm warming up to Raffi, and Rios is pretty good. Jurati is a little annoying at times, but solid acting. Dahj/Soji is the star for me. And Elnor wide-eyed outlook is nice.

I wish these YouTubers going in on PIC for not being this enlightened continuation of TNG would employ those same ethics when making their rants. Criticism I'm fine with. Pooping on a show just for clicks is lame.

 

[Nightdiamond]

Yes, I'm warming up to Raffi, and Rios is pretty good. Jurati is a little annoying at times, but solid acting. Dahj/Soji is the star for me. And Elnor wide-eyed outlook is nice.

This my reaction as well. It takes a few episodes, but Picard's crew does start to grow on you, especially considering they're going out of their way to help the guy. Although Jurati needs to solve her issues or get a barf bag.

Raffi is almost like a character study to me now. She's basically the first character that demonstrated how different (or messed up) the characters in Picard are.

TNG was probably refreshing at the time when smart-ass action-comedy dialogue was common, and when GEN and DS9 started, that was considered refreshing to see more casual-style dialogue and interactions. And now we're back to some fans finding the TNG way refreshing again, including myself.

I just noticed that after watching Picard, and seeing all the controversy about whether this is or isn't real Star Trek, watching any of the TNG era shows feels a little weird.

 

[AlanC9]

To me, Star Wars Rogue One, does not feel like Star Wars. It doesn't look or sound like Star Wars. Everything in it is gloomy looking. It was like the movie that everyone says is awesome, but only because of the Darth Vader scene at the end, but otherwise you don't really get it.

Not looking or sounding like typical Star Wars was exactly what was supposed to be good about Rogue One, of course. It was something new in the Star Wars universe.

 

[Gov Kodos]

Oh wait, I'm supposed to discourage this. Please don't call people incredibly sad. Thanks.

But, what of the poor mods and admins?

 

[Hythlodeus]

What about the 1%!?!

(Was a reference to the one percent intended, by the way?)

well..this guy for example is clearly a turtle

 

[Bad Thoughts]

I don't believe that the Gene-vision thing can be reduced to a marketing device. Yes, he wanted to make money, and he was willing to do a lot in order to get rich. However, he also took his reputation as someone who could prescribe a future to humanity seriously. And he was a hypocrite. These three aspects don't cancel the others out, but it does mean reading his intentions are not necessarily straight forward. He could be both anti-militarism but pro-imperialism.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I don't believe that the Gene-vision thing can be reduced to a marketing device. Yes, he wanted to make money, and he was willing to do a lot in order to get rich. However, he also took his reputation as someone who could prescribe a future to humanity seriously. And he was a hypocrite. These three aspects don't cancel the others out, but it does mean reading his intentions are not necessarily straight forward. He could be both anti-militarism but pro-imperialism.

he started drinking his own Kool-aid in the mid-80s and, like with every other religious cult, the moment the cult leader starts to believe his own made up shit, that's when it gets dangerous. Trek fans were lucky it didn't all end with a mass suicide, really.

 

[Alexander Corrino]

he started drinking his own Kool-aid in the mid-80s and, like with every other religious cult, the moment the cult leader starts to believe his own made up shit, that's when it gets dangerous. Trek fans were lucky it didn't all end with a mass suicide, really.

Given how some of the "GENE'S VISION" cultists are all for "letting Star Trek die with dignity instead of making it walk around like a zombie" AND are fully prepared to help it along the way by hating on it whenever possible, desperately hoping for all the new shows to fail, giving them bad ratings wherever they can... they just shifted the attention of who/what should die.

 

[Turtletrekker]

well..this guy for example is clearly a turtle

I object!

 

[Nyotarules]

The militarism of Starfleet.

Yeah Starfleet is a civilian organisation, everyone knows the average office worker goes to work every day and says Aye captain to their boss and follows orders without question, plus all those weapons we hide in our lockers for defensive purposes only...

Long story short, Gene felt they were too militaristic.

And yet TOS was meant to be like Hornblower...lol

 

[Turtletrekker]

And yet TOS was meant to be like Hornblower...lol

Right?

 

[SolarisOne]

well..this guy for example is clearly a turtle

All he needs is one of these:

 

[cooleddie74]

If Gene didn't want Starfleet to be military he shouldn't have made it a military.

 

[fireproof78]

I wonder if Star Wars has the same issue. The prequels are generally considered to be awful, yet I wonder if a generation of kids who grew up on them will think THAT'S how Star Wars is supposed to be, and gets upset when Midichlorians are ignored in new ones, or find fault when there's comedy injected into them.

Star Wars definitely does, especially with the Sequel Trilogy and the newer films. It's the same old, tired, argument; "This isn't real SW!"

I wish these YouTubers going in on PIC for not being this enlightened continuation of TNG would employ those same ethics when making their rants. Criticism I'm fine with. Pooping on a show just for clicks is lame.

It would be nice...