Picard: "Just Like Other Sci-Fi"

[fireproof78]

Even this is more that anything Seven got so far. And don't forget: The Context is King. In Jadzia's case there were enough other scenes where Jadzia also struggled with the idea of the revenge (especially after the revenge). In Seven's case, we have a main char, that didn't struggle with this until now or had any consequences. And this is not the way, the Trek universe did work in former shows. So, like in the case of some similiar acts by Archer, I just want to see something more than a Seven, that now has to be "immoral", just to let Picard shine a bit more.

When the story is over I'll judge it.

I'm not worried about it in this context.

He literally tells Kruge when he's hanging off the cliff, to "Give me your hand!"

It's only when Kruge then uses that mercy to try and kill him by grabbing his ankle to pull him over the edge, that Kirk finally reaches the limits of mercy/patience.

I'd also point out Kirk's reaction to his own "let them die," said in anger to Spock in TUC... He visibly recoils after saying it.

And then he has his log entry. Is there recoil at that too?

Again, I'm not saying it isn't complicated mix of emotions or that it is one of straight up revenge. We certainly have seen Kirk play with revenge before ("Conscience of the King" springs to my mind). But, I'm not going to act like Kirk's motivations were totally fine or not complicated in that movie, especially in light of TUC.

Others can read it differently. But, it's not simple, to my mind.

 

[yotsuya]

My understanding is that a lot of this is about Picard and Seven being former Borg and that they never really fully recovered their humanity. So to explore that fully will likely involved some no-Federation like behavior. If they do it right, it will be a healing journey (at least for Picard) and have consequences. But this goes back to Best of Both Worlds Pt II that opened season 4. They are pulling from deep into TNG and Voyager for some of their themes and they are exploring things those series didn't like to dwell on.

 

[fireproof78]

They are pulling from deep into TNG and Voyager for some of their themes and they are exploring things those series didn't like to dwell on.

Which is probably the greatest appeal-that and Romulans-for me.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

And don't forget: The Context is King. In Jadzia's case there were enough other scenes where Jadzia also struggled with the idea of the revenge (especially after the revenge). In Seven's case, we have a main char, that didn't struggle with this until now or had any consequences.

The only real difference is that DS9 prepared us better for the notion that heroes can be flawed and make mistakes. Our heroes in the other series were also flawed to a lesser extent, but the hype seems to overwhelm that truth.

 

[fireproof78]

The only real difference is that DS9 prepared us better for the notion that heroes can be flawed and make mistakes. Our heroes in the other series were also flawed to a lesser extent, but the hype seems to overwhelm that truth.

I think TOS did it as well. I love "The Enemy Within" (it's on my mind due to recent rewatch) because Kirk is wrestling with himself...literally. No one ever said TOS was subtle.

One thing that I like about Kurtzman era Trek is going back to the TOS type sensibility. More action, more adventure and a lot of character struggles.

 

[garakvsneelix]

The only real difference is that DS9 prepared us better for the notion that heroes can be flawed and make mistakes.

Oh, I think, there were much more real differences between DS9 and PIC. But on the one hand I wrote about them earlier in this thread and on the other hand, I am also a fan of fireproof78's idea: Let's wait until the end of the season.

One thing that I like about Kurtzman era Trek is going back to the TOS type sensibility. More action, more adventure and a lot of character struggles.

And in the same breath, the mankind of the 24th century now acts a lot more like the officers of the 23th century. I'm not sure if this 'degenerations'* are really the kind of thing I want to see in STAR TREK.

*sorry for my English - I didn't find a word, that is not that 'harsh'

 

[Hythlodeus]

And in the same breath, the mankind of the 24th century now acts a lot more like the officers of the 23th century.

They act like human beings again. It's hard to be a show about the human condition if all characters in the show are just larger-than-life saints

 

[fireproof78]

And in the same breath, the mankind of the 24th century now acts a lot more like the officers of the 23th century. I'm not sure if this 'degenerations'* are really the kind of thing I want to see in STAR TREK.

*sorry for my English - I didn't find a word, that is not that 'harsh'

Actually, I think that's a fair word.

However, I don't think we can conclusively state that all mankind behaves just because of a few examples in Picard. I love Star Trek as much as the next person, but there is a tendency to generalize whole groups based upon the actions of a few. I mean, its a very human action, but still, it isn't helpful always.

I don't think the Federation has degenerated. I don't think it has regressed. I think the people within are facing great challenges and may or may not rise to them. That's the drama.

 

[Jadeb]

I'm sure it involved emotion. And it was directly preceded by Kirk trying to save Kruge despite everything he had done, and Kruge responding by trying to kill Kirk. It was pure self defence and it is very disingenuous to try paint it as revenge.

I both appreciate that scene and am uncomfortable with it. I think it’s amazing when Kirk tries to save Kruge after all Kirk has been through, including the death of his son at Kruge’s command. That’s very Star Trek — humanity overcoming its baser impulses. At the same time, I feel that scene is designed to elicit a cheer from the audience when Kirk finally kills Kruge. It’s the same sort of ugliness that has now taken hold in the streaming shows in a big way. These shows pay lip service to traditional Trek values, but the writing often encourages viewers to give in to those baser emotions — to titter while Georgiou murders people and cheer when Seven goes Hollywood action hero to gun down a bunch of people. It can feel very hypocritical to me. Or at least hollow. “We can be better, but for now here’s some murder and gore because we know people enjoy that.”

 

[fireproof78]

These shows pay lip service to traditional Trek values,

Unfortunately, as is the nature of drama, this has been a part of Trek for a while.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Unfortunately, as is the nature of drama, this has been a part of Trek for a while.

since TOS S1 to be precise

 

[Bad Thoughts]

These shows pay lip service to traditional Trek values

Like the Prime Directive, the so-called central principle, which the characters worry about violating even though it hampers their efforts to offer humanitarian assistance?

 

[fireproof78]

since TOS S1 to be precise

Roughly. It is hard to have a ballpark figure though

Plus, you factor in fan fiction, books, head canon, inflation, taxes and shipping and handling and it makes precision very difficult.

 

[zenophite]

Through five episodes, I have been reading a lot of the same complaints about Picard.....
I for one have loved seeing the flawed characters of Picard, including Picard himself. It is more interesting to watch them and have their personal demons haunt them instead of getting over it in the span of an episode. This has been one of the most interesting casts we've had in Star Trek as a whole since DS9. Would you rather watch Neelix and Harry Kim? Or Mayweather and Hoshi?.

So I am in the camp of trying to keep an open mind and giving the show a fair shot. At the same time I don't feel like I need to try too hard to like this show against my own inner reaction and overlook things that I take issue with. I'm not against a character study on a broken Picard (or any other character for that matter) in principle but what I would like is a well done story in that vein. The reason I have a negative slant is that so far the broken Picard story does not have enough emotional weight or gravitas to me. Picard's 'failure' does not resonate because it's not really his failure - it's the failure of the Federation to listen to him. If you are going to show us a broken Picard then I want his failure to feel honest and real not 'I did what I could but they wouldn't listen'. I want to see Picard having seriously screwed up and actually make a serious mistake - that would have weight.

Another thought is that the Federation couldn't be evil. I don't like them being evil, but not because they shouldn't be, but because it has been done to death........

I'm similarly up for an evil or broken Federation/Starfleet if a good story can be built around it. I will disagree however that this has been done to death. What we've seen in the past I think is mostly in the "a few bad apples" camp of having some sketchy characters in positions of power abuse that power. I'd be more interested in a study on whether a Federation could even exist given how many possibly fundamental differences in culture, ethics, mores and so forth there would be between alien cultures. Anything other than just a few 'bad apples' type stories.

People are also worried that we are going to get a junk ending to this first season because we need to wrap up this storyline. Are people expecting Picard season two to be a completely new storyline with him getting a starship and it will be just like TNG? I don't think we'll have an end to this storyline, even if Picard does find Soji, for a while. It will just keep growing and moving forward.

I do worry about a garbage ending because IMO the weakest part of this whole affair is the actual driver of the story - the whole Soji/Destroyer of Worlds Conspiracy. I'm not partial to Kurtzman or the folks from the JJ Abrams stable in general in terms of delivering on a story so I am jaded at this point. Also, I like details - especially small details - and in some cases this show has been slightly off...not significantly , mind you but just little things here and there.

 

[ThreeEdgedSword]

(especially after the revenge). In Seven's case, we have a main char, that didn't struggle with this until now...

I don't know, Seven did not strike me as a person who is totally at peace with herself and her choices. She was,at times, defensive, angry, she has gudging respect for Picard, she even cared enough for his ideals to try and hide what she was going to do, she is driven... If we get more of er and of the Fenris Rangers, I would hope these inner conflicts would be explored.

 

[Blip]

And then he has his log entry. Is there recoil at that too?

Why does he need to recoil? The log entry is his own bitter acknowledgement of how his long held ("I've never trusted Klingons..") and reinforced ("I can never forgive them..") prejudices are coloring his view of the peace summit, and the obstacles such prejudices present for the historic opportunity for peace that Spock is championing. A peace that Kirk clearly states he'd like to believe can be forged.

Kirk's weary distaste for the prejudices he (understandably) feels should be clear enough. Besides which it's a monologue, not another knee jerk reaction like the comment he made to Spock. Recoiling during this scene would look rather silly.

 

[fireproof78]

Why does he need to recoil? The log entry is his own bitter acknowledgement of how his long held ("I've never trusted Klingons..") and reinforced ("I can never forgive them..") prejudices are coloring his view of the peace summit, and the obstacles such prejudices present for the historic opportunity for peace that Spock is championing. A peace that Kirk clearly states he'd like to believe can be forged.

Kirk's weary distaste for the prejudices he (understandably) feels should be clear enough. Besides which it's a monologue, not another knee jerk reaction like the comment he made to Spock. Recoiling during this scene would look rather silly.

Agree to disagree.

 

[thribs]

It’s about evil robots taking over. It’s basically a poor version of BSG and Westworld.

 

[Gov Kodos]

I, Mudd, the androids had a takeover plan. What are Little Girls Made Of, the androids took over and killed their overlords. Trek is often Techphobic. Like the current ban on synths.

 

[Zeppster]

Like any other sci fi? I know know about that. It's pretty mediocre compared to other sci fi is my problem with it. Same with Discovery. When you see a show like Orville doing Star Trek better than Trek and then shows like Expanse doing sci-fi better. I can probably go through dozens of other newer shows that are way better scifi than Trek than just those 2. This is just mediocre is my biggest issue.