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Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candor"

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They don't explain anything. Its something Picard says after being asked a question. He could just as easily be lying about his motives for not contacting any of them and just saying something that will shut up the person asking him. You insist lines are dumb and lazy because you want lines that spell out everything to you what Picard absolute motives are. But that's not all dialogue is used for. I would posit that in that case it could have been used more to contextualize a relationship rather than tell the whole truth. Pronouncing something dumb and lazy is a perfect way to block yourself from looking at what you're seeing from a different perspective. It a piece of dialogue isn't giving you what you demand it should have, maybe it was never intended to in the first place.
Picard said CLEARLY he does not want the guilt of the old crew following him, dropping everything in their lives to join a quest that is born out of his mistakes alone. The whole show showed those mistakes and how he failed to face up to them.

It isn't hard to see since it is said so outright. Except to Tarek, evidently.
 
Ok. Let me use this as an opportunity to clarify this:

I just didnt like the way they wrote it. I have no problem with him not asking TNG people if there is a good reason not to. Maybe he is thinking back to "All good things.."

"I did ask them once and I got Crushers ship destroyed and 3 Enterprises "destroyed". (Although, wibbly wobbly timey wimey, they were not actually destroyed). He wont go that route again. It was ok to ask Starfleet for a ship since this appears to be a serious situation, even a national security threat, and thats what Starfleet ships and officers do.

He IS allowed to care more about his TNG colleagues. Or maybe they all have families and kids and Raffi doesnt. Asking the nuns is ok because warriors being bound to a cause is what they do anyway. If not bound to my cause, they would just end up working for some other cause, so why not?

But they didnt say all that. They had some lazy dumb lines. But let me say, since I think others here misunderstand....I am just saying I think they could have framed and explained it better. Not that their arent reasons to do what he has done. Anyone who disagrees is free to disagree.

I get all that, but the premise you seem to be working on is he asked these people to come help him out of goodwill. That is not the case. Two came along uninvited for their own reasons, one was paid (because this is how he makes a living) and another is honouring a code which he lives according to his customs. None are doing Picard any favours or there without motivations of their own.

Therefore an equivalence made with potentially asking his old crew fails because we are not given any reasons they would choose to be there of their own volition. They would be there out of loyalty to him, not self interest. They would feel obliged, these people all stand to gain.

American show made primarily by Americans for the last 50+ years.

About a Frenchman, played by an Englishman, living in France and going on an adventure in outer space having spent his life working for a distinctly socialist organisation and society of which he is still a citizen and really does not resemble the US at all.

In no way is the Federation an allegory about America specifically. Trek makes comments and raises questions about the world at times (sometimes more eloquently than others) but it is, and never has been, the case that the Federation is tied to representing any one real world nation. TOS episodes often commented on events like Vietnam (A Private Little War springs to mind) but that was on an episode by episode basis, not a broad strokes pairing. One could equally easily draw parallels with the old USSR as it's contemporary US in that regard, or have Starfleet represent NATO, or ask questions about British colonialism for that matter.

The people making the show said that. They wanted it to reflect on these times. Trump, Brexit, the refugee crisis, etc. The Federation is not the American system. It is not the EU either. Nor the UN. But if you want it to reflect the issues of our times, there are a lot of ways for them to do that, no matter what system of govt they say the Federation has.

I think Brexit and the EU serve as closer analogies here, the idea of a conglomerate of largely independent sovereign nations who can secede if they wish is much closer than that of a superstate, especially when the Romulan refugees are considered in the context of the Brexit campaign and the issues which fuelled it.

The decision to halt was (apparently) driven in no small part by the threat of secession by 14 races, which is clearly comparable to the European situation, although what the Synthetic attack says about 9/11 is another question especially given we do not yet know a great deal about exactly how it happened.
 
In no way is the Federation an allegory about America specifically. Trek makes comments and raises questions about the world at times (sometimes more eloquently than others) but it is, and never has been, the case that the Federation is tied to representing any one real world nation. TOS episodes often commented on events like Vietnam (A Private Little War springs to mind) but that was on an episode by episode basis, not a broad strokes pairing. One could equally easily draw parallels with the old USSR as it's contemporary US in that regard, or have Starfleet represent NATO, or ask questions about British colonialism for that matter.
You are wildly overestimating the capacities of American media productions to imagine the greater world at large as anything but want to be Americans, except in the most egregious stereotypes.
 
They don't explain anything. Its something Picard says after being asked a question. He could just as easily be lying about his motives for not contacting any of them and just saying something that will shut up the person asking him. You insist lines are dumb and lazy because you want lines that spell out everything to you what Picard absolute motives are. But that's not all dialogue is used for. I would posit that in that case it could have been used more to contextualize a relationship rather than tell the whole truth. Pronouncing something dumb and lazy is a perfect way to block yourself from looking at what you're seeing from a different perspective. It a piece of dialogue isn't giving you what you demand it should have, maybe it was never intended to in the first place.

You agreed that it would make sense for him to say if he were asked, and then when reminded that he WAS asked about former colleagues BY NAME, now it is not sensible? Sure, all speech, not just dialogue, can be used to hide the truth, shade it, conceal motives, etc. I agree. But context is what would matter in that case. Why would he lie to Zhaban about his reasons for not contacting Geordi or Worf? Why would it matter if Zhaban knew? Then they have Zhaban say something stupid about needing then to ask people who hate you! That's dumb. No, you dont ask people who hate you. That's silly.

I am calling them dumb and lazy since they are, in this context, dumb and lazy. IMO. Look, if you dont agree, then we are just going to have to disagree about that. Thats fine.
 
The Old Mixer, I did not see your post before I wrote that reply above. That will be me final one on that question in this thread.
 
I'd have bought Jurati's space babble fine if her numbers weren't so precise. To the average viewer who has no idea about any of this, she sounds like she knows her stuff, instead of prattling a bunch of nonsense numbers. If she'd said it like “There are billions of habitable planets in our galaxy and like a zillion galaxies out there," we'd get that she's just guesstimating out her ass. But no, she says the very specific "three billion" stars in our galaxy (off by a factor of 33+) and then says there "are a trillion galaxies" (which is 500 to 1,000 times the 100 to 200 billion currently estimated). She then says there are a septillion known planets. "Known"? That’s the ~number of stars in the entire Universe. If she meant galaxy that means there would be 3.33e+14 (33 quadrillion) planets around each star. Badly written either way.

I was re-watching the episode last night and I noticed it as well, missed it on the first run. When Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars in our galaxy it caught me by surprise. There are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, with many estimates putting it closer to 300 or 400 billion.

I know it's major nitpicking, but when you're dealing with someone that's supposed to be one of the smartest people in the room, something like that sticks out.
 
I was re-watching the episode last night and I noticed it as well, missed it on the first run. When Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars in our galaxy it caught me by surprise. There are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, with many estimates putting it closer to 300 or 400 billion.

I know it's major nitpicking, but when you're dealing with someone that's supposed to be one of the smartest people in the room, something like that sticks out.
I think she was pulling Rios's leg like she had her dad.
 
I was re-watching the episode last night and I noticed it as well, missed it on the first run. When Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars in our galaxy it caught me by surprise. There are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, with many estimates putting it closer to 300 or 400 billion.

I know it's major nitpicking, but when you're dealing with someone that's supposed to be one of the smartest people in the room, something like that sticks out.

She's smart in the cybernetics field, not in space travel. That's like asking a custodian to do accounting, isn't it?
 
For the record, I'm cool with the current drift into politics because it's remaining focused on how the show is or should be reflecting them. So long as it doesn't become about arguing real-world politics.

But continuing to dredge up Tarek's prior arguments about why Picard didn't call the TNG crew is, like, so two days ago. Let's all just leave them there and move on, shall we?

The problem here is that, unless people update the thread hourly, posters are still going to be working through the older posts and might feel strongly enough about something another poster said to respond immediately. It's human nature. You aren't going to let your carefully crafted or spur-of-the-moment (but very witty) response stew while you check through three more pages on the off-chance the poster you're responding to was told to drop it by the mods.

Wordforge has a tendency to clip such posts and responses out into "sidetrack" threads, avoiding new posters from seeing the derailment and thus continuing to clog up the thread with fresh crashing railcars. Not sure if that's possible here given the higher traffic (I don't know if it can be automated via the board software), but might be worth considering?
 
I was re-watching the episode last night and I noticed it as well, missed it on the first run. When Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars in our galaxy it caught me by surprise. There are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, with many estimates putting it closer to 300 or 400 billion.

I know it's major nitpicking, but when you're dealing with someone that's supposed to be one of the smartest people in the room, something like that sticks out.
Prime universe and alternative license confirmed! :rommie:

In all seriousness, nitpicking is about laughing at the mistakes and oversights that were made in shaping the show. They happen. Unfortunately, there will be people who are going to try to justify the 3 billion stars comment in some way or other (not unlike Han Solo's "twelve parsecs). I'd rather just laugh about it.
 
I was re-watching the episode last night and I noticed it as well, missed it on the first run. When Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars in our galaxy it caught me by surprise. There are over 100 billion stars in our galaxy, with many estimates putting it closer to 300 or 400 billion.

I know it's major nitpicking, but when you're dealing with someone that's supposed to be one of the smartest people in the room, something like that sticks out.

Jurati says there are over 3 billion stars.

That is, technically, correct.
 
What were you expecting him to do differently there? Double down with arguments that have already failed?
Well primarily point out why, 14 years later their decision was wrong - principally because I, as the viewer, want to understand whether it actually was wrong or not. I don't think the show has actually sold the idea that Picard's ideological predilections concerning the Romulan rescue are 'in the right' at all. We haven't actually seen any long term implications yet to make a determination one way or another...it seems that Romulans and the Federation are working together on the borg project...

I disagree with both of these statements. The current American government has not only ignored and downplayed humanitarian emergencies, it has created at least one. The officials who have resigned have been repeatedly criticized for their silence, not actively exposing the decisions and actions that caused their resignations. Picard might reflect very well the current state of politics.


Too much a reflection on current politics I think. I mean that in the sense that it has been built up in the press with a particular slant. Not to stray too far into neutral Zone territory but I think one of the problems with the overall approach is that when it comes to political commentary the writers seem clearly bent on hamfisting an particular view rather than using allegory as was the way Star Trek was really good at in the past. I think it is pervasive in Hollywood circles at this point.

Trump seems to me to be more of a Rorschach test for people - reinforcing their existing beliefs - more than anything else.
 
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Prime universe and alternative license confirmed! :rommie:

In all seriousness, nitpicking is about laughing at the mistakes and oversights that were made in shaping the show. They happen. Unfortunately, there will be people who are going to try to justify the 3 billion stars comment in some way or other (not unlike Han Solo's "twelve parsecs). I'd rather just laugh about it.
Why is it unfortunate? People engage material in different ways. That's OK. IDIC and all that jazz.
 
The problem here is that, unless people update the thread hourly, posters are still going to be working through the older posts and might feel strongly enough about something another poster said to respond immediately. It's human nature. You aren't going to let your carefully crafted or spur-of-the-moment (but very witty) response stew while you check through three more pages on the off-chance the poster you're responding to was told to drop it by the mods.
I'm all too aware of that phenomenon, which is the reason I've been as lenient as I have been on the issue. No hard infractions have been handed out over that debate.

Wordforge has a tendency to clip such posts and responses out into "sidetrack" threads, avoiding new posters from seeing the derailment and thus continuing to clog up the thread with fresh crashing railcars. Not sure if that's possible here given the higher traffic (I don't know if it can be automated via the board software), but might be worth considering?
Culling specific posts out can be done manually, but it'd be too big a pain in the ass to bother with for such a long-running conversation. Plus, giving it its own thread would only encourage people to keep it going.
 
I'm all too aware of that phenomenon, which is the reason I've been as lenient as I have been on the issue. No hard infractions have been handed out over that debate.


Culling specific posts out can be done manually, but it'd be too big a pain in the ass to bother with for such a long-running conversation. Plus, giving it its own thread would only encourage people to keep it going.
Nuke the thread from orbit. It's the only way to be sure.
 
Not to stray too far into neutral Zone territory but I think one of the problems with the overall approach is that when it comes to political commentary the writers seem clearly bent on hamfisting an particular view rather than using allegory as was the way Star Trek was really good at in the past.
Oh, there were plenty of times in TOS and DS9 that what was being commented on was far from subtle: Private Little War, Let This Be Your Last Battlefield, Past Tense, Rejoined.
 
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