Spoilers Star Trek: Picard 1x04 - "Absolute Candor"

[Captain Killy]

But no, their inaction is somehow not their own fault, it is HIS fault for not trying hard enough to talk them into it. That's not something he needs redemption for. Nor was he required to be surrogate dad to Romulan orphans or take care of grown adult Raffi. She has a roof over her head, her own ship and is a grown adult. This isnt faulting him for his own moral failures, it is faulting him for the moral failures of others.

Absolutely no one has said that. Starfleet’s decision to not help the Romulans is on Starfleet and Starfleet (And the Federation) will have to own up to that. But this series isn’t about Starfleet, it’s about Picard. And Picard gave up. It’s just that simple. That’s the point you seem to be missing here. He not only walked away from Starfleet, he walked away from Raffi, he walked away from Elnor, he walked away from the Romulans. And his walking away...hurt people. His walking away had consequences. And he is responsible for that.

You keep saying everyone knew the situation and quite frankly, you don’t know that. We haven’t been shown that on screen. I think it’s a safe bet that the Klingons wouldn’t have been willing to help the Romulans, but OTOH, Jean-Luc Picard is no ordinary man in the eyes of the Empire. He was K’mpec’s Aribiter of Succession. He was the former commanding officer of the Ambassador to the Klingon High Council. Picard’s voice held weight within the Empire. Did he go to Worf or Martok and at least try. The day Starfleet accepted his resignation did he go straight to the Federation President? Did he go to the Federation News Service and do an interview? No. Knowing that Raffi got discharged because of him, did he ever check up on her? Did he go to the CnC and advocate for her? Did he return to Vashti to explain what had happened? Did he ever check up on Elnor? Again no he did not. This is not about Picard failing to persuade the Federation to rescue the Romulans. This is not about him failing to rescue the Romulans. This is all about him no longer trying, about giving up, about Picard waking away from the people who cared about him and those who needed him. You say he didn’t have any responsibility for those people...of course he did.

 

[oberth]

Absolutely no one has said that. Starfleet’s decision to not help the Romulans is on Starfleet and Starfleet (And the Federation) will have to own up to that. But this series isn’t about Starfleet, it’s about Picard. And Picard gave up. It’s just that simple. That’s the point you seem to be missing here. He not only walked away from Starfleet, he walked away from Raffi, he walked away from Elnor, he walked away from the Romulans. And his walking away...hurt people. His walking away had consequences. And he is responsible for that.

You keep saying everyone knew the situation and quite frankly, you don’t know that. We haven’t been shown that on screen. I think it’s a safe bet that the Klingons wouldn’t have been willing to help the Romulans, but OTOH, Jean-Luc Picard is no ordinary man in the eyes of the Empire. He was K’mpec’s Aribiter of Succession. He was the former commanding officer of the Ambassador to the Klingon High Council. Picard’s voice held weight within the Empire. Did he go to Worf or Martok and at least try. The day Starfleet accepted his resignation did he go straight to the Federation President? Did he go to the Federation News Service and do an interview? No. Knowing that Raffi got discharged because of him, did he ever check up on her? Did he go to the CnC and advocate for her? Did he return to Vashti to explain what had happened? Did he ever check up on Elnor? Again no he did not. This is not about Picard failing to persuade the Federation to rescue the Romulans. This is not about him failing to rescue the Romulans. This is all about him no longer trying, about giving up, about Picard waking away from the people who cared about him and those who needed him. You say he didn’t have any responsibility for those people...of course he did.

exactly - alas, i'm not totally sure somebody hasn't disposed of martok by now. klingons, you know

 

[Captain Killy]

And you know I’m not entirely saying Starfleet was wrong making the decision they made here BTW. The CnC was not wrong when she dressed down Picard the way she did. The Federation is made up for somewhere between 140 to 150 member worlds, so when a full 10% of your population says they’re going to succeed over something you have to take that seriously. The result of 14 worlds, possibly some of the founding worlds, leaving the Federation would be disastrous. I totally get that. But again this isn’t about the Federation or Starfleet, it’s about Picard and how he responded to that decision which was basically to wash his hands of the entire thing and everyone.

 

[SJGardner]

And you know I’m not entirely saying Starfleet was wrong making the decision they made here BTW. The CnC was not wrong when she dressed down Picard the way she did. The Federation is made up for somewhere between 140 to 150 member worlds, so when a full 10% of your population says they’re going to succeed over something you have to take that seriously. The result of 14 worlds, possibly some of the founding worlds, leaving the Federation would be disastrous. I totally get that. But again this isn’t about the Federation or Starfleet, it’s about Picard and how he responded to that decision which was basically to wash his hands of the entire thing and everyone.

And to make your argument even stronger, they said 14 species, not 14 worlds. They could easily have 30-40 planets among them, possibly full sectors. Maybe their secession could've even cut the Federation in half if they were in the wrong places.

 

[arch101]

Absolutely no one has said that. Starfleet’s decision to not help the Romulans is on Starfleet and Starfleet (And the Federation) will have to own up to that. But this series isn’t about Starfleet, it’s about Picard. And Picard gave up. It’s just that simple. That’s the point you seem to be missing here. He not only walked away from Starfleet, he walked away from Raffi, he walked away from Elnor, he walked away from the Romulans. And his walking away...hurt people. His walking away had consequences. And he is responsible for that.

You keep saying everyone knew the situation and quite frankly, you don’t know that. We haven’t been shown that on screen. I think it’s a safe bet that the Klingons wouldn’t have been willing to help the Romulans, but OTOH, Jean-Luc Picard is no ordinary man in the eyes of the Empire. He was K’mpec’s Aribiter of Succession. He was the former commanding officer of the Ambassador to the Klingon High Council. Picard’s voice held weight within the Empire. Did he go to Worf or Martok and at least try. The day Starfleet accepted his resignation did he go straight to the Federation President? Did he go to the Federation News Service and do an interview? No. Knowing that Raffi got discharged because of him, did he ever check up on her? Did he go to the CnC and advocate for her? Did he return to Vashti to explain what had happened? Did he ever check up on Elnor? Again no he did not. This is not about Picard failing to persuade the Federation to rescue the Romulans. This is not about him failing to rescue the Romulans. This is all about him no longer trying, about giving up, about Picard waking away from the people who cared about him and those who needed him. You say he didn’t have any responsibility for those people...of course he did.

Seems like the bigger story here is WHY did a man like Picard just throw in the towel one sunny afternoon in SF? This may be even more central to this series than the whole Data/Maddox/ Borg thing.

 

[Danny99]

My episode four thoughts:

Watching Picard with a young Elnor was a great callback to his longing to have a family, but not truly feeling he could have one.

Line of the episode: "Man can't take a guilt trip without a starship."

I appreciate the attempt at Romulan world building, but I don't know how such a secretive state that demands obedience to the state ends up with warrior nuns that speak with absolute candor. I also had a hard time separating Amirah Vann from her role on How To Get Away With Murder, which is mercifully coming to an end this spring.

Picard continues to be a beautifully shot series, beautiful to look at.

Patrick Stewart does a great job, especially in his tone, to show the burden Picard is holding, that he left these people behind and basically fell on his sword and hid on the chateau. This is a man who believed so heavily in his ideals and ended up letting the universe crumble because of them.

You knew Seven was coming at some point, but I think the writers did a decent job trying to make you think she wasn't going to be the pilot. All of the promotion had Picard seem surprised to see her at the chateau, which we now know is on a holodeck on the ship. I am hoping the next episode will outline how she just happened to show up to help Picard as it seems kind of lucky that she just showed up. The fan geek in me also wants to know what happened to the Voyager characters. As much as I hated the storyline, what happened to her and Chakotay? What about Tuvok and the Doctor? Did her and Janeway have a falling out and that drove her away from Starfleet and maybe into life as a mercenary or in an intelligence role? Was she unable to integrate back into humanity and spends her time off on her own?

I continue to have problems with this Narek/Soji/Narek's sister storyline. I still think they revealed that Narek is out to destroy Soji too early and that it was a poor writing choice to begin with. From that, we get their scenes between Narek and his sister, now directed by both Culpepper and Frakes, that are strangely sexually charged for siblings. They are either face to face or rolling around on a bed or something else and the sister seems to say every line like she is Sarah Michelle Gellar in Cruel Intentions. Where is this direction coming from? And the fact that we are basically watching Narek watch Soji figure out her own mystery is boring.

There have been several complaints about the show moving too slowly. Has there been any indication that this storyline has to be wrapped up by the end of season one? If it was, they have made some narrative choices (see the last paragraph) that don't need to be there. If it wasn't, they are wasting time driving home the Narek stuff in every episode. I would have preferred to see no scenes on the cube with Soji and Narek and more focus on Elnor and building that character. He seems extremely cliched at this moment, like some kind of Teal'c to fill the muscle requirement. I would've also liked to have seen more Picard dealing with what Vashti had become.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

I rated this episode a "10" and is my favorite so far. It's dramatic composition and execution were brilliant as "Picard" is shaping up to be a real "Magnificent Seven" scenario.

Again, this series uses time organically and is treated almost as a cast member. They've embraced it instead of seeing it as hurdle to overcome. By doing this they have made time their ally in telling a story. The contrast to this would be how TNG "Nemesis" used time which felt very forced and artificial especially in terms of creating a foil that was supposed to be his Khan Noonian Singh. In that motion picture he also came across looking old and physically diminished but not on purpose. In "Absolute Candor" his age and fragility is very much acknowledged as well as an ingredient to the story telling, and for that I say, "BRAVO!"

The power of Jean-Luc Picard's guilt and self recrimination reminds me of Kirk in TOS and, oddly enough, something I don't believe Jean-Luc did nearly as often as he should have in TNG. This series really has him shedding the arrogance he had in his previous adventures. His regret and anguish over not continuing his efforts to help the Romulans just because it would be less than a perfect effort with a less than perfect outcome is where you truly he crossed that threshold into wisdom. Spock had to suffer death and resurrection. Picard had to face the most personal defeat of his life as well as disillusionment in Starfleet. This program has us seeing and feeling it, and this particular episode really drove that home.

I also thought his relationship with Elnor to be a positive development. It has me hoping that this Romulan survives to be Picard's de facto adopted son and heir. The character deserves it. Elnor also looks to be quite the badass. Very Legolas of LotR fame (though I am sure I'm not the first to point that out).

I am still dubious of Dr. Jurati. They appear to be using all the classic nuances to signal a groundwork for her to be revealed as not being who or what she seems. Then again … I could just be paranoid.

As an aside, I don't know how many have seen Ricky Gervais series Extras," but Patrick Stewart played himself in one episode. I mention this because whenever I first see Patrick in an episode of "Picard" it is what I first think of. I picture him in a story meeting pitching his idea for an episode …

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[MvRojo]

Was it? I even went back and looked. I thought I saw something, but not the big beautiful wings.
It tells me I'm unworthy of HD-- maybe that would have helped.

The best shot is at 40:26. It's easiest to make out the feathers on pylons and the tail.

 

[cooleddie74]

It's basically the TOS Bird-of-Prey with slightly different nacelles, more surface detailing and green impulse vents along the backs of the pylons.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

This is all about him [Jean-Luc] no longer trying, about giving up, about Picard waking away from the people who cared about him and those who needed him. You say he didn’t have any responsibility for those people...of course he did.

Wonderfully said.

And you know I’m not entirely saying Starfleet was wrong making the decision they made here BTW. The CnC was not wrong when she dressed down Picard the way she did. The Federation is made up for somewhere between 140 to 150 member worlds, so when a full 10% of your population says they’re going to succeed over something you have to take that seriously. ...

What makes great drama, in my view, is when there are truly two rational sides to an issue. The reluctance of some member planets within the UFP was understandable, however, ultimately allowing the tail to wag the dog is, in my experience, never a wise course of action. Based on Michael Chabon's performance so far I am feeling this point will actually be dealt with and answered by the time the tale is all told.

I again agree with you regarding Picard being dismissed by the CnC. There was a clear arrogance on his part in his assuming he could waltz back in and have Starfleet accommodate his demands. The fact the series does not run from that interpretation and is dealing with it is one reason why I am loving "Picard" more and more.

 

[Llywela]

What makes great drama, in my view, is when there are truly two rational sides to an issue.

Agreed. I really like that we are getting to see multiple perspectives on the same sequence of events, and that the show isn't saying, 'this person's interpretation is correct and everyone else is wrong,' but instead is simply saying, 'a terrible thing happened and all of these people were affected by it in different ways, they've all been carrying that trauma with them for 14 years, this is how they feel about it now, and all of those points of view are valid.'

 

[Sir Stewart Wallace]

Otherwise why have an old copy of Asimov in his residence.

To project a certain image. Picard is a typical 90's hipster. 2390's, yes, but a hipster nonetheless. He probably still displays his data on LCARS and doesn't even own a holovision.

 

[Alan Roi]

Seems like the bigger story here is WHY did a man like Picard just throw in the towel one sunny afternoon in SF? This may be even more central to this series than the whole Data/Maddox/ Borg thing.

Picard alway bore an oversized sense of self-righteousness, which we've seen displayed numerous times. The failure of the Federation and Starfleet to live up to Picard's own heightened moral code over a project of the proportions as the Romulan rescue broke his faith in his entire world, IMO.

 

[fireproof78]

Picard alway bore an oversized sense of self-righteousness, which we've seen displayed numerous times. The failure of the Federation and Starfleet to live up to Picard's own heightened moral code over a project of the proportions as the Romulan rescue broke his faith in his entire world, IMO.

Indeed. There is a level of identification that Picard has that would have significantly shaken his worldview.

 

[Iamnotspock]

As an aside, I don't know how many have seen Ricky Gervais series Extras," but Patrick Stewart played himself in one episode. I mention this because whenever I first see Patrick in an episode of "Picard" it is what I first think of. I picture him in a story meeting pitching his idea for an episode …

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You're not alone.

"This Starfleet Admiral tells me, "Oi, you can't go back into space!" and I go, "Oh no?", and her uniform falls off and she goes, "Ahh!", but I've seen everything, and I hire a ship and I fly off.

Into space."

 

[T'Bonz]

Tarek71, give the "Mary Sue" bit a rest, eh? Not only is it inaccurate but it's extraordinarily annoying to read it over and over and over and over and OVER AND OVER again. You made your point and now the discussion is only going in circles.

Plus - you're wrong. Picard is merely a man with high ideals who can't adapt to the unfortunate realities of Starfleet politics. Nothing more - nothing less. His pain is due to the fact that people died because he couldn't convince others to put aside self-interest in some cases and the greater good in others (both Federation and Romulan governments alike) to help.

It was never about him (as is the case with a Mary Sue) but about them. If he was a Mary Sue, he'd have succeeded. If you don't get that, you don't truly comprehend what a Mary Sue is. That is the key component of a Mary Sue. Doing something better than anyone else AND being more successful. Mary Sues don't fail.

 

[Doc Mugatu]

This the problem here. They want this to be about him needing redemption, but they could have done that by making him responsible for at least SOME of this. Instead, he is the Moral Mary Sue who always takes the right stand, always the epitome of the Starfleet officer, and of all that is Right and Good and Just.

Saving 100s of thousands? Not good enough! Staking his whole career on continuing the rescue mission? Not good enough! He should have spent every day as a civilian trying to talk everyone else into doing the right thing, even though every Power in the Quadrant and every world in the Federation and the general public all know about the Romulan situation. If they dont help, that is on THEM, not on him.

But no, their inaction is somehow not their own fault, it is HIS fault for not trying hard enough to talk them into it. That's not something he needs redemption for. Nor was he required to be surrogate dad to Romulan orphans or take care of grown adult Raffi. She has a roof over her head, her own ship and is a grown adult. This isnt faulting him for his own moral failures, it is faulting him for the moral failures of others.

Except it IS about Jean-Luc because he made himself the face of the issue. He made it his responsibility. He gave his word and folks held him to it. Picard wrote a check on an account the UFP decided to close. Jean-Luc is also a hero of quality who puts more on his shoulders then he should and takes it personally when things awry.

Now life, and good drama, is not about being "fair." Just the opposite. It's about dealing with the unfairness of it all. Both personally and professionally JLP was devastated by the Federation's moral lapse. As a human being he internalized the trauma. As others have pointed out, his sin was in giving up when people were still counting on him and going home without notice. Ultimately, he did exactly what Starfleet did.

Say 20% of the UFP were against extending aid to the Romulans, well, that left 80% of the member planets who were for it. Picard could have appealed to them to put together a smaller scale rescue and aid package privately. In all the intervening years he not once checked up on anything. Just sat at home nursing a bruised ego. Sorry, but the writers set it up beautifully in putting the burden on Picard's shoulders.

As for Elnor, Picard actively cultivated that relationship, as he had with the Romulan refugees, and then disappeared. As a young child dealing with the loss of his family and home only then to have Picard abandon him, well, gives Elnor every justification to bear ill will towards him.

 

[matthunter]

People like Picard - and I know several of them in real life and have unfortunately inherited a twinge of this from my mother - simply cannot refuse a request for help. And even if helping is beyond our power, we'll still feel responsible.

I have folk still asking for assistance in gathering scientific evidence that, back in 2011, I could have offered freely. Now, my lab budget has been slashed and we just don't have the infrastructure or personnel to do much. Not my fault - but I still feel like I've let people down.

 

[Trekker4747]

Tarek71, give the "Mary Sue" bit a rest, eh? Not only is it inaccurate but it's extraordinarily annoying to read it over and over and over and over and OVER AND OVER again. You made your point and now the discussion is only going in circles.

Plus - you're wrong. Picard is merely a man with high ideals who can't adapt to the unfortunate realities of Starfleet politics. Nothing more - nothing less. His pain is due to the fact that people died because he couldn't convince others to put aside self-interest in some cases and the greater good in others (both Federation and Romulan governments alike) to help.

It was never about him (as is the case with a Mary Sue) but about them. If he was a Mary Sue, he'd have succeeded. If you don't get that, you don't truly comprehend what a Mary Sue is. That is the key component of a Mary Sue. Doing something better than anyone else AND being more successful. Mary Sues don't fail.

This. A million times THIS.

 

[urbandk]

"Mary Sue" has just become a generic insult for "protagonist I don't like."

It doesn't have much to do with its original sense.