You're not alone in thinking this, but some of us have been complaining about it since DS9 and are just a bit tired of arguing with the hordes of people who hate TNG and everything it stood for.
I'm liking the show so far but...
- Thread starter Two-Bit
- Start date
That's it exactly.
Yeah and Cartwright was one of Starfleet's top brass, the fact he was confident in expressing that point of view probably meant he wasn't alone. I'm not saying the Federation is right to abandon the Romulans and the show certainly isn't supporting that point of view. What I and other are arguing is that it isn't unrealistic that the Federation would become isolationist especially after a devastating attack on Earths door step.
Star trek wasn't about ideal humans until TNG and that didn't last very long because it's not very good tv to watch people who are perfect. Yes, problems such as war on Earth, poverty etc had been solved but fundamental human failings hadn't. You have Starfleet officers covering up crimes, Starfleet officers attempting military coups, Starfleet officers being racist, Starfleet officers suffering from PTSD and so on. It's how humans in the 24th century work with those things that is what makes Star Trek compelling. Star Trek is at its worst when it depicts humans as all knowing perfect people who think they are doing the universe a favour by telling aliens how to live.
yep, it's the white savior trope on steroids.
But, that was humanity and it wasn't always perfect or pretty, even in TNG. There were many times were Starfleet's fears shown through, or we would have decisions made based entirely for selfish reasons.
Star Trek is a great show with its optimism, but it never demonstrated a lack of conflict. You had O'Brien struggling with how he felt towards Cardassians, Picard allowing a world to be destroyed, admirals engaging various problems. It's isn't a perfect humanity presented on screen, nor is it one where all divides are eliminated outside of humanity. Humans get along with each other but that doesn't mean that they automatically get along with all other races out there.
TNG may not be my favorite show but I think it did a good job of demonstrating a humanity that did well and a humanity that struggled. Optimism, for me, doesn't mean no conflict. For me, it means being willing to work to find a solution and sometimes humans don't get it perfectly right.
Finally, this is a show that still has to work within a dramatic framework.
I have alot of problems with the show, but these are not my main issues. I can understand cutting the Romulans loose. They got tricked into the Dominion War. They were happy to sit on the sidelines and let the Federation and Klingons get their asses handed to them. I can imagine there being anti-Romulan sentiment. IDIC and love and compassion for all species is an ideal and a goal, but there is just no way that there is zero prejudice.
And the story being told, with Romulan plots, death squads, infiltration of Starfleet, etc shows why caution in allowing Romulans in was justified.
Money has for a long time been off again, on again. Latinum exists, and doing business with at least some req using it or other payments for goods and services.
And the story being told, with Romulan plots, death squads, infiltration of Starfleet, etc shows why caution in allowing Romulans in was justified.
Money has for a long time been off again, on again. Latinum exists, and doing business with at least some req using it or other payments for goods and services.
The show is in-part reaction to the current political moment. And the show is visually very different from TNG. Think of it as a parallel universe exploring different things?
Yes, Cartwright was one of the bad guys. So was Colonel West. There were also two humans on the crew who were racist assassins. Hardly idealised humanity.
Even aside from that film, there are humans who openly express bigotry on the bridge, who experiment on prisoners, who use chemical weapons against civilians, who are involved in human trafficking, who are complicit in false flag attacks, who impose martial law on earth, who propose genocide, who falsely accuse people of crimes, who engage in torture...
Several of those examples come under Roddenberry's reign, and/or in the 24th century.
Most of the time it's just a way to show how heroic the featured characters are. This is just a twist on that, where for once they weren't able to stop things in time, and now they have to pick up the pieces.
To suggest Starfleet's attitude is somehow inconsistent with all that has come before, where there have been numerous examples of humanity's flaws, requires a very selective memory.
probably the best way for me to go about it.
I hated how pretentious Next Gen was. Their Federation was a gated community. And someone who spent their life on the frontier of space believing deeply in the values he was raised with, has come home and is seeing though the cracks in the rethoric.
I agree with everything you said, but while working within a dramatic framework it still has to make sense. So what do we know about the supernova? Not too much so i'm going to make some assumptions here. The Federation knew early enough about the nova that they were assembling a fleet and having debates about it. Assuming that's the case the Romulans obviously knew about the supernova as well. Romulans being who they are, who and what would they evacuate with their own ships? I'm guessing soldiers, their immediate families, leadership, scientists, engineers, technology, weapons, all get priority. So who is left behind? A whole lot of civilians that are not soldiers or political and have nothing to do with anything concerning Federation hate. And now i' supposed to accept that the United Federation of Planets as depicted up to this point in all shows and movies would say no to a rescue operation? This seems like a very unFederation like thing to do. It just doesn't make sense and I don't buy it and I need more than the oldest enemy explanation. I can imagine a scene with Picard after they turned him down looking around confused as a realization suddenly dawns on him "Q enough of these games! return me to the real Earth at once!" Seriously though I hope show explores why the Federation is the way it is now other than just having them do something out of character simply to put the story in motion.
Except they've done it before because of the Prime directive. The Federation was also happy to give away planets that people were living on to placate the Cardassians. The notion that the Federation was this perfect entity that never did anything wrong or questionable in 90's trek is just totally inaccurate.
In the Second World War, the Allies would not have won without the Soviets. Yes, the American intervention was essential, but it was the Red Army that broke the back of the German Army, and without them, the war would have dragged on for so much longer.
However, within a decade of the end of the war, the East and the West were enemies in the Cold War. I suspect the same could be true of Starfleet and the Romulans.
Allies in one war do no necessarily remain allies in peacetime.
Not to mention, the Romulans have always been depicted as one of the oldest enemies of the Federation. Enterprise did a pretty good job to show that the entire Federation basically started as a military alliance against the Romulans; they've been a consistent thorn in the sides of most of the Alpha Quadrant even before the Earth-Romulan War. I find it very plausible that the Romulus supernova and Picard's rescue mission attempt brought up centuries-old buried tensions from many races who still remember having to constantly be on their toes because of Romulan aggression. Centuries of bad blood won't go away without a trace, not even in an optimistic future. Even if Starfleet was ultimately willing to help out the Romulans, 14 races (with possibly dozens of planetary systems and multiple sectors with a considerable industrial base among them) threatening with secession probably tied their hands.
Yep, it's my favourite ST show (and second-facourite TV show ever) and in some ways, I think, PIC plays much more in the DS9 universe than in the utopia, that seemed to be so close in TNG - and on some levels, it became even 'darker' than it was in DS9. That's the reason, why I think, that there should also be some appearences of DS9 characters. What would Garak do, if he met Laris and heard about the Zhat Vash? When Sisko struggled that much with his decision in "Pale Moonlight"... what did a Captain Nog, when he heard about the cancellation of the romulan rescue mission? (I know, that, sadly, Nog couldn't make an appearance without a recasting, but maybe they could mention something like that some captains also retired like Picard, e. g. Captain Nog).
Note that what you're actually supposed to accept is that the Federation refused to mount a second immensely expensive rescue operation after the fleet for the first one got blown up. If it was free they would have done it, sure.
After seeing episode 2 and 3, people need to give the Federation a break. They tried to stop the supernova with experimental technology and it didn't work, they built a massive evacuation fleet and it got destroyed (judging by the competence of Zhat Vash, I suspect the Starfleet knew they were responsible) and trying a barebones operation was impossible without synth crew members. The fact that the Romulans on the Reclamationi project don't openly hate the Federation scientist working there and that two Tal Shiar agents are the only family Picard has shows they were at least given credit for trying.
I feel like people are forgetting that Starfleet was planning to help the Romulans, even constructing a new fleet for the rescue effort. From the sneak peek for the next episode, it looks like Starfleet was taking some resettlement actions, and from the Comic (I think, I haven't read it), Admiral Picard was engaging in some of these efforts.
Admiral Clancy is Starfleet's point of view - and she said that they didn't have the ships and had lost a major shipyard.
Admiral Clancy is Starfleet's point of view - and she said that they didn't have the ships and had lost a major shipyard.
Also "Redemption", where Picard wasn't allowed to help the Klingons without proving outside interference in their affairs.
I think it wasn't even weeks before the East and West were arguing about how to divide up Europe. And Stalin was already bitter because it took the US so long to launch the D-Day invasion.
We know they no longer had the will to carry out the relocation efforts. Doesn't mean they completely cut off humanitarian aid. They could have still been sending relief supplies to worlds that were taking on Romulan refugees.
We simply don't know the whole story yet.
They were never idealized in TOS. Many episodes had Kirk taking the wrong position early on and then pivoting when shown a better way. See: "The Devil in the Dark", "Arena", "Errand of Mercy"...
Or even taking a hard-line position right from the get-go("Man Trap").
It also showed Kirk on numerous occasions completely dismissing the idea of "mankind in paradise." In fact, one of the major themes of TOS was that mankind was meant for struggle, and will continue to do so because it's necessary to keep us challenged. It is as prevalent as the theme of DS9 that questions whether humanity / the Federation can uphold their ideals under pressure.
