Spoilers Starship Design in Star Trek: Picard

[Timo]

Hmh? Nothing about Alcubierre's math is solid. Its basic assumptions are contested, his take on the nature of reality considered deeply offensive. Much as with Einstein. Since Alcubierre can't be tested as easily as Einstein, there's no particular reason to rally in his support, just like there would have been no reason to support Einstein had he not come up with something that could be put to practical test within four years of its formulation already.

Doesn't mean he might not be on to something. But it's not simply a case of a clever thought experiment being made - it's a case of a thought experiment being made that many consider so faulty as not to warrant any examination. But there's a sucker born every minute...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Demosthenes]

It is theoretically possible, as in laws of physics do not directly prevent it. Now for it to be actually possible would require existence of such things as 'negative mass' which may or may not exist. But it is actually something real scientists theorise about and experiments are being planned an conducted. None of this is true for spore drive, which is pure fairy dust. There is no Wkipedia article on mushroom based space travel, no theory about it, nor experiments being conducted. It is fantasy. How can't you see the difference?

Just because 'scientists' theorize about something doesn't make it possible. Falsification is a core tenet of scientific research. Any form of FTL, whether it is warp drive or mushroom drive or whatever, requires exotic matter or particles which simply doesn't exist, and no one has found any evidence anywhere to suggest it does or ever will. Mushroom magic highway is no more absurd than Warp Drive.

 

[Tuskin38]

Discovery just took a earth based concept/theory of groups of fungi being connected via roots in the ground, and made it Sci-Fi-ey, by making the roots of a space mushroom exist in subspace.

 

[Longinus]

Just because 'scientists' theorize about something doesn't make it possible. Falsification is a core tenet of scientific research. Any form of FTL, whether it is warp drive or mushroom drive or whatever, requires exotic matter or particles which simply doesn't exist, and no one has found any evidence anywhere to suggest it does or ever will. Mushroom magic highway is no more absurd than Warp Drive.

I'm done with this tangent. It is futile to argue with people who cannot tell apart fairy tales and actual scientific theories that NASA spends money testing. Though I want to point out that his is the difference between fantasy and scifi. Basing your 'what if this actually worked' on the latter is scifi, basing in on the former is fantasy.

 

[DaveyNY]

The tugs are gorgeous. The shuttles are gorgeous. The cutsie mini-bus shuttles are gorgeous, too. I think it's happening!

Well clean up yer mess when yer done.

 

[Tuskin38]

I'm done with this tangent. It is futile to argue with people who cannot tell apart fairy tales and actual scientific theories that NASA spends money testing. Though I want to point out that his is the difference between fantasy and scifi. Basing your 'what if this actually worked' on the latter is scifi, basing in on the former is fantasy.

Star Trek has done hundreds of things that are scientifically inaccurate or not theoretically possible. That's the fiction part of Science-Fiction. You might as well get as equally upset over the genesis device, or transwarp, or even transporters.

Especially transporters.

 

[Demosthenes]

I'm done with this tangent. It is futile to argue with people who cannot tell apart fairy tales and actual scientific theories that NASA spends money testing. Though I want to point out that his is the difference between fantasy and scifi. Basing your 'what if this actually worked' on the latter is scifi, basing in on the former is fantasy.

Complete lack of self-awareness here. Sorry, but Warp Drive is a fairy tale - just because NASA or anyone else spends money testing it doesn't change that. I am sure NASA and plenty of other outlets have spent a lot of money testing all sorts of things that never went anywhere. The math is NOT sound, it literally requires the invention of exotic matter or particles that simply do not exist, with no evidence anywhere in nature that it may ever exist. It literally says 'this would work if these magic particles or magic matter existed!'.

 

[Longinus]

Complete lack of self-awareness here. Sorry, but Warp Drive is a fairy tale - just because NASA or anyone else spends money testing it doesn't change that. I am sure NASA and plenty of other outlets have spent a lot of money testing all sorts of things that never went anywhere. The math is NOT sound, it literally requires the invention of exotic matter or particles that simply do not exist, with no evidence anywhere in nature that it may ever exist. It literally says 'this would work if these magic particles or magic matter existed!'.

Yeah, that's how scifi works. Warp drive is real scientific concept that at least currently doesn't work, thus working one is scifi; spore drive and force are not real scientific concepts, thus them working is fantasy.

 

[Datasbeard]

Star Trek has done hundreds of things that are scientifically inaccurate or not theoretically possible. That's the fiction part of Science-Fiction. You might as well get as equally upset over the genesis device, or transwarp, or even transporters. Especially transporters.

No one is claiming Star Trek is hard sci-fi. There's no sound in space. FTL isn't possible. Wormholes don't work that way. Etc., etc. The difference between sci-fi and fantasy isn't easy to qualify, but Star Trek has inarguably always been sci-fi in the past. I think to some extent the difference is in how serious (as opposed to realistic) the underlying premise. That's what lends itself to credibility, and credibility is what facilitates suspension of disbelief. So yes, transporters can't exist, but there's nothing silly about them as such, so it's possible to suspend disbelief and enjoy them as part of the story. Mushrooms inhabiting the void of space, allowing instantaneous transportation through the universe with the aid of blood from giant pillow bugs? Not so much. I suppose, though, that these may seem more serious to little kids, or more generally, to people who care less about seriousness, like fans of Marvel movies. I think we see that link pretty clearly on here.

 

[fireproof78]

Agree. Discovery firing photons from its nacelles is no worse than many other similar mistakes we saw on TNG. I don't fault that. Designing a propulsion system based on mushrooms that radically changes how fast ships can move from one point to another that is never mentioned ever again by anyone in the next two hundred years and serves absolutely nothing in the overall story of either S1 or S2 of Discovery…that's just dumb. That's not just a detail. That's a major story and design decision that would have been approved at multiple levels. And it's so, so dumb.

I think it serves the story well. I think that, as BillJ notes, it is a challenge of doing a prequel that things will come never seen before. But, I think that is Star Trek. Things get brought up and then discarded.

To JJ and Bryan Fuller, the designs of Star Trek weren't dear

Again, I don't think fair to those who cannot speak for themselves. I think Abrams was recognizing the history while also wanting to expand the audience and make it less intimidating for outsiders to enter this franchise. From personal experience, I can say it worked well.

Mileage will vary.

And Klingon ships that look nothing like what we've seen before. And uniforms that look like nothing we've seen before. And holographic projections that are like nothing we've seen before (in the era). And mysterious telepathic powers for Vulcans that we've never seen before that don't make any sense with respect to many stories we've seen before that would've been useful. And a magical spore drive that we've never heard about again, even if it does eventually get destroyed.

As I have stated many times I think that more variety with the Klingons is appropriate. Monolithic is not necessary and serves the story.

The spore drive is a mixed bag, but I think it has potential to work.

Vulcans telepathy has never been consistent.

(which Discovery apologists nonetheless continue to defend

Because people keep insisting upon bashing it and bringing it up in threads.

 

[Tuskin38]

Warp drive is real scientific concept that at least currently doesn't work, thus working one is scifi

It wasn't when TOS was created as far as I'm aware. It was just as fantastical as the Spore Drive.

I suppose, though, that these may seem more serious to little kids, or more generally, to people who care less about seriousness

I take it just as seriously as Warp Drive, I don't appreciate the insult.

 

[BillJ]

Yes, but not crazily like suggested. There's still a great resemblance.

Believe it or not, it was seen as pretty radical at the time.

 

[fireproof78]

It wasn't when TOS was created as far as I'm aware. It was just as fantastical as the Spore Drive.

Yes indeed. We take it for granted now.

 

[Datasbeard]

I think it serves the story well.

I get this is all subjective, but how? What did the spore drive achieve re: the plot of S1 or S2 that couldn’t have been achieved with existing Trek technology? There’s exactly one use of it essential to any part of the story, the final battle with Kor, and that‘a almost shoehorned in. Nothing really depends on it in the overall plot.

As I have stated many times I think that more variety with the Klingons is appropriate. Monolithic is not necessary and serves the story.

Agree. We all agree. We have all been saying this from day one. More variety! But that isn’t what Discovery did. It did different variety, not more. Compare with the Romulans in Picard. That’s more variety. The new and the old. If STD Had also given us some one-penis Klingons I think there would have been far less bitching.

 

[Longinus]

It wasn't when TOS was created as far as I'm aware. It was just as fantastical as the Spore Drive.

Not really. Bending of space comes directly from Einstein, and thus obviously known in the 60s. The novel idea in TOS was to have an engine that could artificially produce that bending. Alcubierre 'merely' tried to formulate how one might actually achieve such a thing.

 

[DEWLine]

If we start seeing DSC-style Klingons and TMP/TNG-style Klingons coexisting and interacting with each other from here onwards, I'll be pleased.

But I digress from the starship design discussions already underway.

 

[fireproof78]

It did different variety, not more

I think it was more variety. I think it presented a Klingon Empire in a different light, i.e. more starship architecture, more armor design, different religious beliefs, etc.

I don't have to like the designs to go "This was needed for a long time."

I get this is all subjective, but how? What did the spore drive achieve re: the plot of S1 or S2 that couldn’t have been achieved with existing Trek technology? There’s one use of it essential to the story, the final battle with Kor, and that could easily have been re-written. Nothing realy depends on it in the story.

I think the big one for me was Tilly and Culber in S2. In S1 I think it was the apparent need for the spore drive to defeat Klingons vs. the pain inflicted upon living things. I don't know of an existing tech that would require Stamets to do the genetic modification he did to make it work.

But, I'll admit my bias, as well as the fact that I am lesson concerned about the tech and more concerned about how it impacts the characters, which is the more interesting part for me.

If we start seeing DSC-style Klingons and TMP/TNG-style Klingons coexisting and interacting with each other from here onwards, I'll be pleased.

I see no reason why we can't. And, in my head canon, they coexist anyway.

 

[dantini]

I love this design. (I wonder if they paid John Eaves for it even though he designed it before he was even hired for PIC?)

 

[137th Gebirg]

I hope they did. It looks pretty much dead-on from the concept art, down to the surface details and colors used.

 

[Racefuel]

You know...if the E-E does appear..this is John Eaves opportunity to finally drop that E-E refit he was talking about for the end of Nemesis...