Spoilers Star Wars: The Rise of Skywalker - Grading & Discussion

[Saul]

I wonder if "crap all over the Anakin" thing made the rounds when the books came out?

But when those books came out Anakin wasn't the chosen one. That's something from the prequels. There was no "bring balance to the force" idea and it wasn't Anakin seen as defeating the Emperor, it was Luke by proxy who saved his father and thus allowed Vader to defeat the emperor.

 

[Reverend]

I've seen plenty of fans (even back then) less than impressed with the Dark Empire comics, particularly the whole "Palpatine lives!" aspect. Even without the Chosen One Prophecy thing, it reeks of cheap, lazy storytelling to just recycle and old villain and seemingly retread old ground.
It was a bad idea then, it's an even worse idea now.

Indeed it's one of the reasons why Zahn's initial trilogy was so highly regarded: he actually created a *new* villain which was both compelling and unique. Something very very very few EU authors ever managed.
Indeed, I think you can count the number of memorable post RotJ EU antagonists on one hand, and most of them were memorable for the wrong reasons.

 

[Longinus]

I wonder if "crap all over the Anakin" thing made the rounds when the books came out?

I think I bought the first issue of that comic, thought that the idea was stupid and never bothered with that story line again. But that was expanded universe, which AFAIK, it is full of completely stupid stuff that is better to be ignored. And I have. But the movies are the real deal, and when they regurgitate the worst excesses of the expanded universe then that's just sad.

Because that's what audiences have told them that's what they want. They don't want story-they want spectacle.

Who are these people and how do we get them to shut up? They're idiots.

Personally, I loved the story of the ST but I'll freely admit it could have been better. But, the same could be said of the OT and the PT-defintely the PT.

Oh, the prequel trilogy is certainly an utter clusterfuck. That's why I was always perplexed by people crying about Disney ruining Star Wars. No, Lucas already did that himself. I rather liked the first two parts of the sequel trilogy, I had my quibbles, but overall I was satisfied. And of course they were massively better than the prequels. But this ending left a sour taste in my mouth.

 

[Saul]

I've seen plenty of fans (even back then) less than impressed with the Dark Empire comics, particularly the whole "Palpatine lives!" aspect.

I read it for the first time only a few months ago. It was dire.
Years and years before I flicked through it in a shops and thought some concepts in it were very fanish but hard to resist. Luke going to the Dark Side, Leia becoming a Jedi to save Luke.
I almost wonder if it inspired JJ Abrams when making this movie. The comic was the first thing i thought of when they announced Palpatine was back.

 

[Reverend]

I read it for the first time only a few months ago. It was dire.
Years and years before I flicked through it in a shops and thought some concepts in it were very fanish but hard to resist. Luke going to the Dark Side, Leia becoming a Jedi to save Luke.
I almost wonder if it inspired JJ Abrams when making this movie. The comic was the first thing i thought of when they announced Palpatine was back.

I'll admit to liking it when it came out, but in my defence I was at the time 1) only 11 years old and 2) mostly exciting to get *any* kind of new Star Wars story, and one where Luke went dark and Leia became a Jedi just seemed cool, almost like an alternate timeline "What If" type story.
I still very much have a soft spot of those early Dark Horse comics (mostly the TotJ stuff) but I'm not about to creativly defend Dark Empire. Indeed I don't think i ever even got around to reading Empire's End, though I hear it was anti-climactic.

It's rather telling that aside from the odd oblique mention, most of the rest of the EU tried it's damnedest to ignore pretty much everything to do with Dark Empire. Indeed I'm pretty sure that unlike Mara Jade and Corrin Horn that got integrated into the wider tapestry of the EU, most of not all of the peripheral characters introduced in those books just poofed into obscurity the moment they were done.

 

[fireproof78]

I think I bought the first issue of that comic, thought that the idea was stupid and never bothered with that story line again. But that was expanded universe, which AFAIK, it is full of completely stupid stuff that is better to be ignored. And I have. But the movies are the real deal, and when they regurgitate the worst excesses of the expanded universe then that's just sad.

The storytelling beats are the same and I hear people continually crying for the EU to be adapted instead of the ST. But, the same stuff is there! O_o Fandom makes no sense.

Who are these people and how do we get them to shut up? They're idiots.

Here's the thing-they are spending money. Hollywood is a risk adverse company when dealing with the millions of dollars that they are. So, they see things like Transformers and Fast and the Furious doing well. They see giant CGI battles in Marvel films and want to maximize profits. So, they will play it safe and go where they think the money is.

Follow the money.

But when those books came out Anakin wasn't the chosen one. That's something from the prequels. There was no "bring balance to the force" idea and it wasn't Anakin seen as defeating the Emperor, it was Luke by proxy who saved his father and thus allowed Vader to defeat the emperor.

Hmm....I guess I'm in the weird camp that doesn't think Anakin's sacrifice was in vain or that Palpatine's return negates that. Palpatine was defeated but there was no guarantee another evil wouldn't rise up or that evil couldn't return. What mattered in that moment was Anakin's choice.

 

[crookeddy]

Anakin set in motion the events that ultimately led to the end of the empire. Nothing is negated. Had he not done what he did, the emperor would have killed Luke and ruled forever.

EDIT - well not exactly, since the force probably would have just created a new chosen one to defeat him

 

[Owain Taggart]

Indeed it's one of the reasons why Zahn's initial trilogy was so highly regarded: he actually created a *new* villain which was both compelling and unique. Something very very very few EU authors ever managed.
Indeed, I think you can count the number of memorable post RotJ EU antagonists on one hand, and most of them were memorable for the wrong reasons.

Exactly. I'd actually been secretly hoping that the new trilogy would, if not the same characters, use similar characters to form their main cast of characters. It's one way to flesh out the world, especially if you can have one of your main villains not be human. Thrawn is a compelling character and it's no surprise that Zahn is revisiting him in prequel novels.

 

[JD]

They also used Thrawn in 2 or 3 seasons of Rebels.

Chewbacca staying dead would have offered a far more interesting emotional arc for Ray. Also, the way it was filmed makes it seems like a script rewrite resurrected him.

If it were me I would have waited a bit longer, and then had him escape on his own and show back up in a big heroic moment in the final battle.

Finn wanted to tell Rey that he loved her, but decided not to and then never did at all because she loved Kylo? Well that would have worked if one of them died, but they both made it and now they have a whole life ahead of them. Will he keep it to himself forever?

That is not what he wanted to tell her, the writers and, I think, John Boyega have all said that he wanted to tell her about his force powers. I don't know why they didn't actually put that in the movie, and just left it hanging the way they did. That and the lack of an explanation for Palpatine's return are my biggest issues with the movie.

Who are these people and how do we get them to shut up? They're idiots.

They're the people who made movies like the Micheal Bay Transformers billion dollar hits.
At this point blockbuster movies just don't focus as much on story as they do on the spectacle and action. Some of them will have will manage to get a good story in there between the action scenes, but it's really not where they focus.
If you want something that focuses on story over action, then your best bet is to go TV. Since TV shows don't have the kind of budget as multi-hundred million dollar movies, they are pretty much forced to focus on characters and story to get people to keep watching.

 

[Reverend]

The storytelling beats are the same and I hear people continually crying for the EU to be adapted instead of the ST. But, the same stuff is there! O_o Fandom makes no sense.

Unless everyone that wanted 'A' and complained about 'B' are all the same people it's not confusing at all: different people within a fandom have differing opinions.
For example: I was glad when the EU got shelved (not "decanonised", because it was never canon to begin with), and was not enthused with the idea of Palpatine coming back precisely because Dark Empire already did it and it was pretty stupid then too.

As for wanting straight adaptations; I'd take that on a case-by-case basis. Mostly "no" but there are some that could make the switch with minimal adjustments. Some of Thrawn's back story for example (specifically 'Mist Encounter') was retold almost verbatim. The same could be done with the 'Kenobi' novel, and a few others here and there.
The same's probably true of a few other stories here and there, but for the most part it's best to just cherry pick elements that work and jettison the rest, rather than attempting to cram an ill fitting story into canon.

Exactly. I'd actually been secretly hoping that the new trilogy would, if not the same characters, use similar characters to form their main cast of characters. It's one way to flesh out the world, especially if you can have one of your main villains not be human. Thrawn is a compelling character and it's no surprise that Zahn is revisiting him in prequel novels.

The characters by and large have not been the problem with the ST. Rey, Finn, Poe, Kylo and even Snoke (still not a fan of the name!) were all well conceived (to a point) and were both different and similar enough to the OT cast to work just fine. The problem is that they really didn't have a coherent story for them to inhabit.
It's kind of the opposite of George Lucas's flaws in that while he was great at the broad stroke, the structural, big picture stuff, the details are where the cracks showed. With the ST, the moment to moment details are mostly good, it's the structure that's build out of toothpicks, chewing gum and wishful thinking.

 

[fireproof78]

Unless everyone that wanted 'A' and complained about 'B' are all the same people it's not confusing at all: different people within a fandom have differing opinions.

I shouldn't say confusing-I should say amusing. It amuses me to no end the lack of recognition that the things done in the ST were done in the Legends EU too.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

lack of an explanation for Palpatine's return are my biggest issues with the movie.

I kind of have a problem with the massive Sith fleet, as well.

I imagine it takes months, perhaps even years, to build a single Star Destroyer. (It took 20 years to build the first Death Star.) How many were in that fleet? A thousand, at least. Unless they'd been working on those ships before Palpatine was even born - which I suppose is possible, it could have been planned by the Sith for generations - how the hell did they get all those ships built in so short a time?

 

[Longinus]

I shouldn't say confusing-I should say amusing. It amuses me to no end the lack of recognition that the things done in the ST were done in the Legends EU too.

I recognise it just fine. The expanded universe was full of stupid stuff. And ultimately the segment of fans who like or even read the expanded universe stuff are a vanishingly small minority compared to the people who watch the films.

 

[fireproof78]

The ships didn't bother me. Despite our real world calculations, resource limitations have rarely come up in Star Wars. Given the armor and the fleet build my estimation was that Palpatine had this as part of his Cinder contingency, with construction on going even in his absence.

I recognise it just fine. The expanded universe was full of stupid stuff. And ultimately the segment of fans who like or even read the expanded universe stuff are a vanishingly small minority compared to the people who watch the films.

Fair enough.

 

[Longinus]

I kind of have a problem with the massive Sith fleet, as well.

I imagine it takes months, perhaps even years, to build a single Star Destroyer. (It took 20 years to build the first Death Star.) How many were in that fleet? A thousand, at least. Unless they'd been working on those ships before Palpatine was even born - which I suppose is possible, it could have been planned by the Sith for generationis - how the hell did they get all those ships built in so short a time?

I think they said 10 000? I'm not sure, it was something ridiculous. And all of them apparently had a death star gun... None of it really makes any sense. If Palpatine was behind the First Order but had this massive fleet of planet killer star destroyer in his back pocket all the time, why not just use them from the get go?

 

[fireproof78]

I think they said 10 000? I'm not sure, it was something ridiculous. And all of them apparently had a death star gun... None of it really makes any sense. If Palpatine was behind the First Order but had this massive fleet of planet killer star destroyer in his back pocket all the time, why not just use them from the get go?

Because he was a master manipulator. Keep the enemy on their toes fighting one perceived enemy while preparing to attack with another.

That is pretty much Palpatine in a nutshell. Why attack with one when three are better.

 

[Owain Taggart]

The problem is that they really didn't have a coherent story for them to inhabit.

Right. More or less the characters didn't feel grounded in what they inhabited. To be honest, I would have preferred the Lucas style broad strokes to what we got, or at least some sort of middle ground. It feels like they should have studied Joseph Campbell as I doubt it would have hurt to have him as some sort of reference and at least try to understand the kind of structure Lucas was aiming for. Between the OT, PT and ST, there seem to be a mismatch in philosophies.

 

[fireproof78]

Between the OT, PT and ST, there seem to be a mismatch in philosophies.

Even if we had GL for all three trilogies there would have been a mismatched of philosophies.

 

[ScottJ85]

This is like the worst sort of expanded universe trash.

Which is what a lot of fans wanted, unfortunately.

 

[fireproof78]

Which is what a lot of fans wanted, unfortunately.

Yes, indeed, at least in my experience. No doubt there is a fan petition demanding such a thing.