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Spoilers The Skywalker Saga

The struggle with such a debate is that Lucas initially framed it has black and white, but then introduced more and more shades of gray starting with Empire, and intensifying with ROTS and the Clone Wars series.

So, initially we start in a black and white realm of "The Empire is evil" but the reality is far more messy in its discussion.
 
The name "Skywalker Saga" is almost offensive to me. It's Disney's way of placing all the episodic films under one box and slapping a label on it. They tried the same thing with the MCU,... all the films until Black Widow are part of the infinity Saga.. it's all about branding. Star Wars is Star wars.. and the story of Skywalker is the story of Star Wars.. it's like trying to say that the Godfather series is not about the Corlieones.

Of course I'd like to see films explore other people and situations besides the Skywalker stuff, set in the same glaaxy, so I probably shouldn't have a problem with the label. Except it feels so.. corporate.. like a marketing meeting where all the employees had too much red bull, and out comes a way to almost parse out the Skywalker stuff from Star Wars.. yet still make sure the name Skywalker works like trust fund, and it always have money in it.
 
This opens up a big question. One I know will cause some consternation. Are the stormtroopers who have done things doing them of their own volition, or are they simply following orders? To put it in more of a historical context: how many Germans were truly members of the Nazi party? So, how many Imperial citizens were truly members of Palpatine’s regime?
Weren't most of the original Stormtroopers willing recruits? I know that doesn't necessarily mean they were all true believers, but it does mean that they were at least a bit more willing to be part what the Empire was doing than the First Order Stormtroopers, who were kidnapped and forced into it.
 
Well, the Empire we see anyway. But of course the movie is designed to be a battle of good vs. evil. The entire idea of Rebellion vs. Empire is a far more complicated situation than that. Is the Rebellion a group of freedom fighters? Or terrorists? Is the Empire an oppressive regime? Or is it attempting to maintain peace and order?

Of course there’s no right answer to any of this. But it’s just an opportunity to debate.
I'll take the side of the group that doesn't blow up entire populated worlds, thanks.
 
Yeah, after everything they've done, I don't really see how anybody could actually question whether or not the Empire is evil.
 
Weren't most of the original Stormtroopers willing recruits? I know that doesn't necessarily mean they were all true believers, but it does mean that they were at least a bit more willing to be part what the Empire was doing than the First Order Stormtroopers, who were kidnapped and forced into it.
Part of the thing with stormtroopers is there was always speculation as to where they came from, including them being clones.
 
Yeah, after everything they've done, I don't really see how anybody could actually question whether or not the Empire is evil.

The leadership itself, yes. But as can be seen with Finn, there could be those in the ranks who are being fed propaganda about the evil Rebellion.
 
They suggest that only the Sith deal in absolutes. But are they right?

I would actually argue that the line you're referencing is Obi-wan engaging in a little bit of self-deception. He doesn't really want to fight Anakin. He certainly doesn't want to have to kill him. Hell, when the chips are down he leaves Anakin alive, in agony, even when it would have been a mercy killing. He loved Anakin too much.

So he's trying to psych himself up for the fight. To sever his connection to Anakin by convincing himself that Anakin is truly gone. We know from the OT that he eventually succeeds, and sees Anakin and Vader as two separate people, more or less. But at this point he still really hasn't come to grips with it yet. I'm not sure I'd consider this a Jedi belief as much as Obi-wan's sort of twisted hope that his brother really isn't still in there somewhere.

Can well-placed anger or fear make a difference? Is it healthy to truly cut off all emotional attachments? We obviously can see that Anakin failed because of his connections, but Luke ultimately succeeded. But the Jedi did so for generations, so was it solely a Skywalker issue?

Those blasted Skywalkers! :p

Ok, so in light of the newest trilogy, I'm going to make an argument here as well. It isn't experience, or even nature that decided the fate of Anakin, Luke, or even Ben. It's expectation and the fear that results.

Anakin is told right from the start that he's the Chosen One. That's a hell of a lot to live up to. And Qui-Gon believed it so much he was willing to defy the Jedi Council to train Anakin even after they refused to allow it. So Anakin has all that weight on his shoulders. And, honestly, the power and skill to back it up. But looming in the back of his mind is the fear that he'll fail. He has internalized the message, and has ridiculously high expectations for himself and his abilities. And so that fear infuriates him. He's the Chosen One, he should be almost all powerful (in his own mind). So every time he fails he is overtaken by that fear, grows angry, and lashes out. And he'll do almost anything to live up to his unnaturally high expectations for himself. Until he's finally put in a position where his choice is to risk failing or to betray everything he has ever believed in. But he's the Chosen One. His choice must be correct, even if it turns him against the Jedi.

Luke, by contrast, has much less weight on his shoulders. He's just along for some adventure, and then to learn the ways of the Force and become a Jedi. Even in the Death Star trench, he's just another pilot trying to do a job. A very important, potentially universe saving job, but a job all the same. There's no more pressure on Luke than there was on any of the other pilots. Similarly, as a Rebel hero and leader, he's just one among many. Nobody expects him to be a great warrior, some superhuman warrior monk. He has hopes, dreams and goals but they are those of a normal, adjusted person. It isn't really until Return of the Jedi that Yoda and Obi-wan saddle him with the big revelation, that he must confront Vader and the Emperor and save the galaxy. And by then Luke is far enough along to draw his own conclusions, throw out the script of what's expected, and do what he thinks is right. Contrast this with his life after he became Jedi Grand Master, and what the weight of those expectations did to him.

Ben Solo is more like his grandfather. Living in the shadow of Luke, Leia, and Han has got to be a challenge. With that lineage it must be easy to imagine that everyone is always watching you with such a critical eye, judging. "He's not his father's son as a pilot!" "He's no leader like his mother." "He'll never be the Jedi his uncle was." And it doesn't matter if anybody was actually saying these things or not, because Ben felt them. That constant shadow over his every action, his every word. I think that's part of why he came to worship Vader. He saw Vader as his grandfather's act of rebellion. Screw the expectations, be selfish and carve out your own path. He had a kind of romanticized, skewed vision of his grandfather's path, and fate, that led him astray. I think that's why he struggled so much with darkness and light. His nature certainly had some rage and petulance in it. But I don't think Ben was selfish by nature. I think he had too much of his mother in him for that.
 
So, let's start with the question of the Jedi: They believe in peace and justice above all things. They suggest that only the Sith deal in absolutes. But are they right?

I don't know if they do, but Obi-Wan's comment about absolutes falls in line with his later comment to Luke that many of the truths they cling to "depend on a certain point of view."

So what's that point of view? It's never really revealed.

Can well-placed anger or fear make a difference?

We know through Yoda that fear leads down the Dark path.

Is it healthy to truly cut off all emotional attachments?

Normally, no. But they Jedi rely overly on peace and calm when using the Force. Emotions can sway the use of that.

We obviously can see that Anakin failed because of his connections, but Luke ultimately succeeded. But the Jedi did so for generations, so was it solely a Skywalker issue?

Maybe the strength of the Force within the Skywalker line makes them more dangerous when emotions are used.
 
The name "Skywalker Saga" is almost offensive to me. It's Disney's way of placing all the episodic films under one box and slapping a label on it. They tried the same thing with the MCU,... all the films until Black Widow are part of the infinity Saga.. it's all about branding. Star Wars is Star wars.. and the story of Skywalker is the story of Star Wars.. it's like trying to say that the Godfather series is not about the Corlieones.

Of course I'd like to see films explore other people and situations besides the Skywalker stuff, set in the same glaaxy, so I probably shouldn't have a problem with the label. Except it feels so.. corporate.. like a marketing meeting where all the employees had too much red bull, and out comes a way to almost parse out the Skywalker stuff from Star Wars.. yet still make sure the name Skywalker works like trust fund, and it always have money in it.
George Lucas was referring to the films as the Fall and Redemption of Anakin Skywalker since the 80s. Calling it the Skywalker Saga is the logical extension of that since it becomes about Anakin's legacy after his death as well as Luke, who is arguably a more important figure in the nine film franchise. So I really don't know what you're upset about.
 
The name "Skywalker Saga" is Disney's way of placing all the episodic films under one box and slapping a label on it.

This, like so many other things you've said on these boards, is false.

The Episodic films have been consistently described as being the "Skywalker Saga" for nearly 3 decades.
 
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It's no different than when Lucas decided to go back to the first movie and slap Episode 4: A New Hope on it. Disney is going to be doing many things with this franchise so slapping "Skywalker Saga" on it makes perfect sense.
 
It's no different than when Lucas decided to go back to the first movie and slap Episode 4: A New Hope on it. Disney is going to be doing many things with this franchise so slapping "Skywalker Saga" on it makes perfect sense.

Referring to the Episodic films as the "Skywalker Saga" predates Disney's purchase of Lucasfilm by about 22 years.
 
Regardless of who named what and when, that’s not what this thread is about. We are discussing the bigger themes and events of the saga as a whole.
 
Steering this back on topic, here's my thoughts on the subject as taken from another forum:
The Rise of Skywalker and the things its story does actually help address complaints about the stories of TFA and TLJ not feeling consistent because Rey being a Palpatine but rejecting that lineage cements both her and Ben Solo as the co-protagonists of the Sequel Trilogy and places their connection to each other at the heart of the story just as Anakin's hubris was placed at the heart of the Prequel Trilogy and Luke's connection to Anakin was placed at the heart of the Classic Trilogy.

The Episodic films might be referred to as the Skywalker Saga, but they're actually ultimately about two families, Palpatine and Skywalker, and that's why they work.
 
I'm sure this has been addressed in the EU, but I've never read any of those and am unfamiliar with all the events therein. But is it possible that Palpatine created Anakin as a long-game to infiltrate and collapse the Republic and Jedi Order? And is it a coincidence that Padme (whose fellow Nabooian is Senator Palpatine) and Qui-Gon end up diverted to Tatooine to meet and free Anakin? Perhaps Darth Maul was only sent there to make sure things moved in the right direction.

Sounds like an "I have foreseen it!" moment if there ever was one. In that case, the Skywalker Saga is of Palpatine's making.
 
We do not know enough of the Empire to say it's good or evil just because. We accept it at face value because Darth looked slick at the time and those effects - yup, must be evil. They all have British accents too and this is largely an American flick so some out there will parallel the OT with the American war of independence, lamentably so... (Insert here enough rolleyes emoticons to cause internet bandwidth to crawl to standstill.) Seriously, did anyone really think that with any sincerity?

Never once did I equate Star Wars with the American Revolution because the Imperials seem to favor a British accent.

There is plenty of on-screen evidence to support the fact that the Empire is evil. At least the leadership of said Empire is evil. And this was even before the prequels.

ANH: Vader chokes the life out of the captain (later revealed to be Captain Antillies) of the Rebel ship (later revealed to be the Tantivie IV). We find that the Emperor (later identified as Palpatine) dissolved the Senate, thus turning the democratic or republic style of government into a true dictatorship controlled by a totalitarian autocrat who has placed evil twisted men in positions of power and authority. We can surmise this placement was in order to have loyal supporters of the Emperor's regime. The Empire designed a weapon of mass destruction capable of destroying an entire planet. Tarkin had the power and exercised his authority to destroy an entire planet. While an argument can be said that the planet was in rebellion against the Empire, there was no evidence to support this. He condemned an entire planet based on the actions of a single starship and one politician from that planet. Said planet was not even an opposing military force or nation but was comprised entirely of Imperial citizens. Later Tarkin orders the execution of Princess Leia without due process or fair trial. Imperial troops had the freedom to slaughter innocent Jawas and 2 Imperial citizens in a quest to capture 2 droids. The Jawas and the Lars family posed no threat to the Empire.

ESB: Most of the fighting is actually legitimate use of governmental authority against people in open armed rebellion. The torture of Han Solo, however, is evil. They didn't even ask a simple question. Torture for torture's sake.

ROTJ: Really can't think of anything evil that hadn't already been established. Many Bothans died acquiring the new Death Star information. We lack details as to if they were civilians, if it was a whole city or planet, or what. Perhaps the Emperor's attack on Luke could be considered evil.

When we add in the subsequent movies, we get an even broader picture

TPM: Palpatine, in his guise as Darth Sidious, orchestrated and manipulated both sides of the Separatist conflict and he did this to suit his own megalomaniac agenda for power. The implication (I've not read any subsequent tie-in material that contradicts this) is that Palpatine impregnated Shimi Skywalker without consent. The catastrophic death toll on Naboo is a result of Palpatine's meddling.

ATOC: Palpatine uses the emergency he caused and continues to manipulate to seize power.

ROTS: Palpatine ignores due process and the legal authority of the Jedi to remove him from office. Palpatine uses a hypnotic pre-programmed order to force troops to turn on their allies. Palpatine orders Anakin to murder the very Separatist leaders that Palpatine had been manipulating for years in order to cover his tracks. Palpatine orders Anakin to murder innocent children. For years after Anakin is used to hunt down and murder Jedi.

R!: Krennic is not above using lethal force to persuade, capture, and manipulate the Erso family. Abduction and imprisonment is a viable means to achieve his goals. Krennic orders the execution of innocent scientists who may also have been prisoners of the Empire. Krennic and Tarkin willingly order the destruction of an entire city simply to test a weapon of mass destruction. The people of Jedha are implied to have been used as forced labor in construction of the Death Star.

SOLO: Imperials are seen as being corrupt.

So the evidence is overwhelming that those in positions of authority within the Empire were quite evil. Palpatine, Vader, Tarkin, Kerric. All sick evil men that were comfortable in their use of lethal force, blatant murder, and other crimes against humanity to perpetuate and support the government.

Other Imperials were clearly just doing their job. Most of the Imperial solders, even though the slaughter of innocents like the Jawas and the Erso and Lars families are black stains that should have caused the soldiers to refuse orders. Admiral Piett seemed to be a simple soldier following orders. Even Moff Jerjerrod seemed like a loyal soldier overseeing the construction of the Death Star and not a war criminal, unless one holds the view that creating said weapon of mass destruction is enough to label him evil.
 
Luke was a rather indecisive wastrel at the beginning. First he dreams of going off to the (presumably Imperial) academy. If he did that and ended up working for the Empire, he probably would have been one of the ones just doing a job. He did make it clear to Ben that he hated the Empire.

Kor
 
I just realized something that I somehow never realized before, while reading an article on Tor.com comparing elements of Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker. Anakin spends the whole movie worrying about Padme dying in childbirth, and in the end she does end up dying, because of what he did. So he ended up causing the very thing he was trying to prevent.
 
I just realized something that I somehow never realized before, while reading an article on Tor.com comparing elements of Revenge of the Sith and Rise of Skywalker. Anakin spends the whole movie worrying about Padme dying in childbirth, and in the end she does end up dying, because of what he did. So he ended up causing the very thing he was trying to prevent.
It is better articulated in the novel, at least for me, but it definitely shows through in the film a bit too. Anakin is so afraid of something happening that he ends up causing it to happen.
 
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