Spoilers The Skywalker Saga

[Campe]

As the film is starting to see screenings tomorrow and this thread encompasses the entire saga, there likely will be spoilers for The Rise of Skywalker in this thread.

I wanted to start a thread about the Skywalker saga as a whole and the overall viewpoint of it. A place to discuss the themes and the rhyming that goes throughout all nine films. I really don't want to get into opinions of the films as a whole (in other words, I really don't care if you hate Attack of the Clones or The Last Jedi) or if you are pro or anti Reylo or if you think that the Imperial Star Destroyer I outdoes the II. I don't care.

I want to discuss the bigger ideas in the films: the idea of family and that it perhaps doesn't necessarily mean blood, the concept of Palpatine as a character and his overall plan for revenge against the galaxy, is the Rebellion and later the Resistance a real force for good or are they terrorists, are the Jedi right... at... um.... anything, stuff along those lines.

So, let's start with the question of the Jedi: They believe in peace and justice above all things. They suggest that only the Sith deal in absolutes. But are they right? Can well-placed anger or fear make a difference? Is it healthy to truly cut off all emotional attachments? We obviously can see that Anakin failed because of his connections, but Luke ultimately succeeded. But the Jedi did so for generations, so was it solely a Skywalker issue?

Those blasted Skywalkers!

 

[BillJ]

So, let's start with the question of the Jedi: They believe in peace and justice above all things. They suggest that only the Sith deal in absolutes. But are they right? Can well-placed anger or fear make a difference? Is it healthy to truly cut off all emotional attachments? We obviously can see that Anakin failed because of his connections, but Luke ultimately succeeded. But the Jedi did so for generations, so was it solely a Skywalker issue?

The Jedi deal in absolutes every bit as much as the Sith. I think Anakin “failed” because he had experienced the real world before ever starting his training. He had already begun to form his own opinions on right and wrong.

 

[Campe]

The Jedi deal in absolutes every bit as much as the Sith. I think Anakin “failed” because he had experienced the real world before ever starting his training. He had already begun to form his own opinions on right and wrong.

I mean, absolutely. But Luke did the same and he too had all of that. He did okay... for awhile.

 

[BillJ]

I mean, absolutely. But Luke did the same and he too had all of that. He did okay... for awhile.

Luke reminded me of a meandering suburban dweller, with no real belief in anything beyond whining. Anakin had lived a hard life as a slave, and likely saw life and death up close.

 

[Campe]

Luke reminded me of a meandering suburban dweller, with no real belief in anything beyond whining. Anakin had lived a hard life as a slave, and likely saw life and death up close.

To be fair, Luke really didn’t start training until ESB. He certainly saw some death up close in ANH between Owen, Beru, Obi-Wan and Biggs. And I’m sure there were other adventures as well. Yes, he did his share of whining in ESB too but not nearly as much.

 

[CorporalClegg]

I want to discuss the bigger ideas in the films: the idea of family and that it perhaps doesn't necessarily mean blood,

I think this is at the core of the whole thing. And I think it's a pretty important message, especially in the age of "nuclear family" being used as coded hate. And I think it's inherent in the very basic metaphor of The Force. It's an energy field created by all living things. It surrounds us, penetrates us, and binds the galaxy together. It gives Jedi us our power. It works as a metaphor for blood. But more so, it works as a metaphor for love. It's love that defines a family, not blood. Kinda beautiful, really.

The three main characters all represent this, even if it wasn't fully known at the time. Luke and Leia are both orphans. We assumed Owen was Luke's paternal uncle, but as it turned out they aren't even related by blood. And no one knew about Leia either, but she was also raised by people with whom she had no blood relation. And Han's name was so on the nose, I think everybody probably assumed it was made up even before they knew it was made up.

But together they all made their own family with a walking carpet and two robots. And I've always loved that classic cast shot of them in the Falcon cockpit. The way it's framed almost makes it feel like it was taken out of a Lampoon's Vacation movie. Filoni did this a lot with the Ghost crew, as well.

And once you remove the notion that family is only those of the same bloodline or the same name, but of real genuine connection born from that magical force that binds people together, the Skywalker family tree starts to look pretty big, with a lot of dangling branches.

The new movies are no different. It's clear Leia took Poe on as a surrogate to fill the void left by Ben. Fin was born into a word in which he was never given a name until he met his brother-in-arms. As for Rey ... well ... tun in same Bat-channel. But I don't think it was a mistake that she doesn't have a last name. And TFA ends with her in a battle of that magical force that binds us all together with Ben over who is the rightful heir to the Skywalker legacy. And then they kinda do it again in TLJ.

 

[DarKush]

Obi-Wan made the line about absolutes at a tense, raw emotional moment, and far as I know it could have just been something he felt, or Obi-Wan felt needed to be said to try in vain to get Anakin to see reason, or maybe telling himself, to prepare himself to kill a man he considered his brother, and not necessarily a law or philosophy of the Order.

 

[BillJ]

To be fair, Luke really didn’t start training until ESB. He certainly saw some death up close in ANH between Owen, Beru, Obi-Wan and Biggs. And I’m sure there were other adventures as well. Yes, he did his share of whining in ESB too but not nearly as much.

I guess my point was that Luke comes across as more of a blank slate versus Anakin.

 

[CorporalClegg]

And shit, I forgot all about Mando: The guy who found his own little fuzzy ball of adorableness and took it to love!

 

[Campe]

I guess my point was that Luke comes across as more of a blank slate versus Anakin.

That's probably a fair assertion. He was easily swayed into joining. Cute girl (who ended up being his sister). Promise of being a knight (when he was really just a means to an end for Obi-Wan and Yoda). (Ya know, he kinda got the short end of the stick when you really think about it,)

 

[USS Firefly]

He had already begun to form his own opinions on right and wrong.

And he was being manipulated by Sidious from a very young age.

 

[fireproof78]

I guess my point was that Luke comes across as more of a blank slate versus Anakin.

He definitely fits in to that everyman trope quite well, which is part of why TLJ can be a struggle. But, it was bound to happen. These characters are to take on a life of their own, after all.

 

[Qonundrum]

We do not know enough of the Empire to say it's good or evil just because. We accept it at face value because Darth looked slick at the time and those effects - yup, must be evil. They all have British accents too and this is largely an American flick so some out there will parallel the OT with the American war of independence, lamentably so... (Insert here enough rolleyes emoticons to cause internet bandwidth to crawl to standstill.) Seriously, did anyone really think that with any sincerity?

The Jedi claim the Sith deal in absolutes... erm, by using absolutes as well. But the Jedi's belief while being unwitting of their own actions could be as much a greater point as it is going "Ha ha, it's a plot hole and one so big that one could pilot a dozen, adjacently-placed Death Stars through with room for more." That theme plays into Luke's own actions in TLJ.

TFA didn't set things up (it's not only a templated copycat of 1977's outing but is even more a blank slate.) Nobody should have to find a comic or leaflet to fill in gaps when it's a main entry in the main saga in a new chapter, which shouldn't be regurgitate inanely what was told three chapters ago.

The having just went and returned to a parallel dimension, I have to gossip this: The saddest part is that not just Obi-Wan and Yoda setting up Luke; if there the sequels in 1980 onward took things slightly differently, the flick could sell the idea of "no magical force did it, you did it on your own - remember all those rodentia life forms you pelted lasers at from your moving landspeeder? You already had tons of practice in ways nobody else had, since you were a young brat. Of course you'd nail it the Death Star vent and this isn't your conscience telling you all these details over the sequels, it's schizophrenia-driven voices and visions!" Now there's subverting subversion of expectations and all this started long before anyone bought the franchise.

 

[BillJ]

We do not know enough of the Empire to say it's good or evil just because. We accept it at face value because Darth looked slick at the time and those effects - yup, must be evil.

That and he was choking the shit out of people right out of the gate.

 

[Campe]

That and he was choking the shit out of people right out of the gate.

This opens up a big question. One I know will cause some consternation. Are the stormtroopers who have done things doing them of their own volition, or are they simply following orders? To put it in more of a historical context: how many Germans were truly members of the Nazi party? So, how many Imperial citizens were truly members of Palpatine’s regime?

 

[BillJ]

This opens up a big question. One I know will cause some consternation. Are the stormtroopers who have done things doing them of their own volition, or are they simply following orders? To put it in more of a historical context: how many Germans were truly members of the Nazi party? So, how many Imperial citizens were truly members of Palpatine’s regime?

I'm not sure we'll ever know. Though we do know there is at least some programming involved with Order 66 from Revenge of the Sith. Who knows what else they were programmed to do?

Though the post I was quoting, we learn fairly quickly that the Empire isn't the good guys.

 

[Jedi_Master]

I see Rey and Ben as redemptive characters- Ben as redeeming the legacy of his family, and Rey as redeeming the legacy of “Skywalker” as a symbol.

To expand on that - the men in the Skywalker line were (at their base) selfish. Anakin’s selfish desire to preserve the lives that were important to HIM and HIM ALONE led him to slaughter tens of thousands.

Luke’s selfish desire to close himself off from the pain of loss led him to abandon the galaxy when it needed him most.

Ben made the ultimate sacrifice- to rid the galaxy of the evil of the Sith... and to save the woman he loved.

 

[Campe]

I'm not sure we'll ever know. Though we do know there is at least some programming involved with Order 66 from Revenge of the Sith. Who knows what else they were programmed to do?

Though the post I was quoting, we learn fairly quickly that the Empire isn't the good guys.

Well, the Empire we see anyway. But of course the movie is designed to be a battle of good vs. evil. The entire idea of Rebellion vs. Empire is a far more complicated situation than that. Is the Rebellion a group of freedom fighters? Or terrorists? Is the Empire an oppressive regime? Or is it attempting to maintain peace and order?

Of course there’s no right answer to any of this. But it’s just an opportunity to debate.

 

[BillJ]

But it’s just an opportunity to debate.

I'm not sure there's a debate to be had, because we don't know what either side really stood for. Though, maybe that's the point? They've been fighting for so long, no one knows what they are fighting for, beyond their "side".

 

[Campe]

I'm not sure there's a debate to be had, because we don't know what either side really stood for. Though, maybe that's the point? They've been fighting for so long, no one knows what they are fighting for, beyond their "side".

Maybe. And that is the issues with the films. Just because of the design, it’s hard to get into the nitty gritty. Rebels does show a few Imperials who question the moral stance of the regime. As does the book Lost Stars.