Sadly few do
Was Riker insubordinate during "Chain of Command"?
- Thread starter AdamNY
- Start date
Are 'Chain of Command' episodes good enough to fight over them. 
It was a bad two-parter for Riker but he’s easily capable of being captain. He (and everyone else) acted badly here because the writers manufactured drama. He stayed on the Enterprise because he was mature enough to recognize the value of what he had there above the idea of being a captain on another ship.
Riker not letting the captain go the away mission is what got him the job on the Enterprise and probably what the rest of the fleet adopted thereafter. Kirk going down only made sense on TV.
Riker not letting the captain go the away mission is what got him the job on the Enterprise and probably what the rest of the fleet adopted thereafter. Kirk going down only made sense on TV.
I think Riker was incredibly difficult and made some serious errors. He didn't have to like Jellico but when Jellico gave an order, he should have followed it. I also note that Jellico did try to phrase everything politely and explain his reasoning--he's just not brooking any disagreement.
Hey, let's send 3 people into a heavily fortified Cardassian base. The leader will be a 60 year old guy and we'll take along the 45 year old doctor, who has never had any black ops training. It's going to be extremely physically demanding and probably a whole contingent of Cardassian will be out there trying to kill you. Only the old captain can read the tricorder to see if there are theta band emissions (or whatever they were). No one else could possibly look at the tricorder and figure out if they were those type of emissions. How can the plan not succeed?
You would think the Federation would have robots such as ones shaped as beetles or other insects to infiltrate and destroy bio weapons. Couldn't Wesley Crusher just put two nanites together and come up with something that could do that?
You would think the Federation would have robots such as ones shaped as beetles or other insects to infiltrate and destroy bio weapons. Couldn't Wesley Crusher just put two nanites together and come up with something that could do that?
Riker was not only insubordinate - he WAS also shown as incompotent. To wit:
The first order Jellico gives is that he wants to go from a 3 shit to a four shift rotation. Riker can't even do that - and DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY INFORM Jellico of why for HOURS. IMO - Riker's reason is weak as hell too. it's basically:
"I spoke to the Dept. Heads and they think it's too disruptive/ will cause staffing issues..." <--- Really
.
The 1701-D in the Federation Flagship, has 1000+ crew, but a change from 3 shifts to 4 shifts is impossible?
Nope - Riker (it seems) didn't want to upset the Dept. heads because they all like him I guess.
Hell, in the scene itself - even Picard is looking embarrased and giving the impression of: "WTF Will - Jellico IS your Captain now...why are you making me look like an idiot here too?"
Hell, if that was the first thing your new First Officer did (IE fail to carry out what should be a somewhat simple change compared to some of the harder life/death decisions Command staff have to make - yeah, I'd be questioning his competence too.
Hell none of the supposed "Best Crew In Starfleet"™ come across as compotent as their whole response seems to be - "Hey, Picard wouldn't run the ship this way; or be so demanding..."
^^^
News Flash: They're in Starfleet, not "Picard's Fleet" -- Picard was relieved and a new Captain properly installed, AND ordered into a situation and area that could become HOSTILE in short order -- but no, Geordi's complaining about how hard it will be to do changes in the time needed, or how many Science labs they need to shut down, etc. - Even when the entire ship is aware of where their going.
The first order Jellico gives is that he wants to go from a 3 shit to a four shift rotation. Riker can't even do that - and DOESN'T IMMEDIATELY INFORM Jellico of why for HOURS. IMO - Riker's reason is weak as hell too. it's basically:
"I spoke to the Dept. Heads and they think it's too disruptive/ will cause staffing issues..." <--- Really
.The 1701-D in the Federation Flagship, has 1000+ crew, but a change from 3 shifts to 4 shifts is impossible?
Nope - Riker (it seems) didn't want to upset the Dept. heads because they all like him I guess.
Hell, in the scene itself - even Picard is looking embarrased and giving the impression of: "WTF Will - Jellico IS your Captain now...why are you making me look like an idiot here too?"
Hell, if that was the first thing your new First Officer did (IE fail to carry out what should be a somewhat simple change compared to some of the harder life/death decisions Command staff have to make - yeah, I'd be questioning his competence too.
Hell none of the supposed "Best Crew In Starfleet"™ come across as compotent as their whole response seems to be - "Hey, Picard wouldn't run the ship this way; or be so demanding..."
^^^
News Flash: They're in Starfleet, not "Picard's Fleet" -- Picard was relieved and a new Captain properly installed, AND ordered into a situation and area that could become HOSTILE in short order -- but no, Geordi's complaining about how hard it will be to do changes in the time needed, or how many Science labs they need to shut down, etc. - Even when the entire ship is aware of where their going.
clearly Geordie doesn't know how hard so people work. he should watch a doc on the us navy. those sailors are very "good at working around the clock". I put it in quotations because even when you have to work on something fora long time you still get a break. Geordie knows that his team will get a break when there duty shift ends and the next shift will get to work.Geordi says "we'd have have to work round the clock for two days"
If they can't do that then that is just bad. mean that is 250 people per shift if 4 rotations. considering the automation in the 24 century it shouldn't be hard.
Troi and LaForge, despite disliking Jellico and initially privately complaining, still did work well with him.
I can understand Worf being on a mission like this but yeah, don't they have special forces or intelligence officers that can do this kind of work? Then again, this is the same universe where Starfleet sent the elderly crew of the Enterprise on a commando raid in Star Trek V, so...
Riker was the bigger problem here. If there was a problem changing the shifts, Riker should have let Jellico know about it right away but inexplicably doesn't and decides to ignore his new CO's request. That kind of behavior isn't just unprofessional but it's insubordinate. Jellico could have done a better job himself handling the crew so he's not blameless in this whole matter. But Riker is the one who is not doing his job and making it difficult on everyone.
Riker was the bigger problem here. If there was a problem changing the shifts, Riker should have let Jellico know about it right away but inexplicably doesn't and decides to ignore his new CO's request. That kind of behavior isn't just unprofessional but it's insubordinate. Jellico could have done a better job himself handling the crew so he's not blameless in this whole matter. But Riker is the one who is not doing his job and making it difficult on everyone.
We don't know how insubordinate the captain characters were before they became captains. And even captains do resent and sometimes ignore or defy admirals.
Not being particularly ambitious anymore doesn't mean you're immature or would otherwise be a bad captain if you did become one.
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Geordi yes. He moves past it, & eventually becomes a magnificent component of the senior staff under Jellico, even factoring prominently in briefings that led to the final solution. Even his complaining wasn't truly out of line. He defends his work with the new captain, & at one point went to his direct superior and lodged a complaint, basically saying this is a pain for his people, and once he realized that a pain is what everybody got an equal share of, he dealt with it, & we hear nothing more of it. Kudos to him for rising above his personal feelings to get the job done in an unpleasant situation.
Troi however, I still take issue with, specifically that she further aided in corrupting the toxic relations Riker was having with Jellico. Ultimately, she suggested to him, in a professional capacity, that the captain was uncertain about what he was doing, with the Cardassian negotiations, by offhandedly contradicting Riker's comment that he was sure of himself
That action by her could EASILY have led to the following result of Riker fully challenging the captain's authority, and getting himself relieved, soon after he'd heard it, which is why she probably tried to intervene in the exchange before it went that far. As an empath, she could tell it was headed there, & she knew she'd done a bit to exacerbate it.
I don't even buy that her ability is precise enough to differentiate between when someone is unsure of a gamble they have to take, (Which is surely what this whole thing boiled down to, no matter what they did) essentially being unsure of how this will play out, OR someone who is struggling with personal confidence issues (Unsure of himself)
She suggested the latter, which I doubt she could even say for certain, when clearly, there was enough uncertainty about the whole mission to cloud up everybody. Of course he's uncertain! It's the last thing he says to Picard, that he expects all their efforts to fail, & that they will find themselves in a war, because that's what the Cardassians are playing at. That doesn't mean he thinks his calls are not the right calls.
She is too underinformed to be making statements that amount to suggesting the captain's judgement is to be questioned. Period... and Riker paid the price for it, by taking it to heart, when the chips were down. IMHO, she was a shit counselor in that situation
I think an interesting element is that I believe Jellico actually instituted all of the unnecessary changes because he didn't want the crew questioning his orders and wanted them at combat reddiness. Basically, he redecorated the room for the sake of redecorating the room.
And Riker 100% was an asshole because he wondered why he wasn't in command while Picard was away.
And Riker 100% was an asshole because he wondered why he wasn't in command while Picard was away.
Yeah It is unbelievable that Riker became Commander so fast when he made such stupid mistakes
And even IF Jellico was uncertain, he was still the Captain! Okay, so maybe he's playing a hunch, or the odds. So what? The way Troi delivers that line she makes it sound like she thinks Jellico should be bundled off to the Tantalus Colony for a nice rest in Dr. Adam's magic chair or something. Sorry, Deanna, Jellico is just being a human being here and not one of the usual 1701-D pod people you usually interact with on a daily basis.
And a transfer to a desk job at the ass end of nowhere.
