What happened on Earth between 2063 and 2079, and after? How was United Earth founded?

[dswynne1]

My take: if you just learned that ALIENS were confirmed to exist, and that they visited one side of a factional war first, you would do everything in your power to ingratiate yourself to not only the visiting aliens, but to the enemy that may or may not act as "gatekeepers" to these aliens. This is on top of the fact that this same faction just created the means to dominate interstellar space, one way or another. I think that with all of this happening, you would a) sue for peace, and b) see what you can do to be on the aliens' "good side". This would put the Vulcans into the position to be a powerful force in Earth's political theater, enabling them to guide the humans in exchange for their help, IMO (i.e. a version of the Marshall Plan).

 

[Timo]

You don't destroy the majority of the cities and "only" kill 600 million, so the majority of cities weren't destroyed. Whatever Riker meant, it wasn't that the majority of the cities around the world were destroyed. I think he meant the cities in the combatant nations only.

Or then he meant exactly what he said, which was that "all the major cities" were destroyed. It's just that as of the 2050s, the world only had a dozen major cities, that is, cities reaching the necessary 50-million mark. As of the 2060s, the world no longer has those, even if small towns like London at mere 18 million survive just fine.

Let's also remember that the death toll of WWII was 37 million people. This is a figure Spock appends to similar figures for WWI and WWII, both of which are less than half the number of people traditionally listed as having died in those real wars. Of course, "people who die in a war" is a difficult thing to define, because mortality in humans is always 100% at all times. But Spock speaking of those who died directly of bullets or bombs is also incompatible with his figures, as is Spock speaking of, say, combatant dead or noncombatant dead.

However, Spock does explain his figures: they refer to McCoy's preceding statement "They have slavery, gladiatorial games, despotism". Now, as far as we know, there were no gladiatorial games in WWI or WWII, but slavery and despotism were rife - yet arguably specific to certain of the combatants there and not others. So 37 out of every 600 victims of WWIII were "familiar with slavery and despotism", whatever that means. Perhaps they fought for the despots; were sacrificed by the despots; were targeted by the despots; or died specifically of slavery (which was a major killer in the real world wars, even if sometimes indirectly). A briefish nuclear exchange would drastically limit the ways one could die of slavery, in relation with the prolonged real-world conflicts.

Nevertheless, the other way to go would be to say that only about Spock's number died in the war proper, during all the fifty-three minutes of it, and half a billion succumbed to secondary or tertiary effects within the following decade. Which is not how you get "six million dead" from WWI where combat alone cost sixteen million, though.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Nightdiamond]

Even when you separate the Eugenics Wars from WW3, it makes it sound like it should gave been a lot worse.

The Eugenics wars - 37 million killed. Involved Europe, Asia at least. Spock said 'whole populations' were bombed out of existence. He said Earth was on the verge of a "dark ages".

That sounds like a lot of major destruction. Economic upheaval. Diseases. Infrastructure badly damaged.

This clashes with what we see in Voyager. It didn't look like earth was on the verge of a dark age. It looked like everyone was going happily along and Americans were blissfully unaware of what was going on .

So following this, Europe, and Asia only had 30 years to recover before they're hit with ANOTHER war, WW3 in 2026. This time 600 million killed. Major cities destroyed. The US is involved. Then there's that tricky character colonel Greene who looked and sounded very American who killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

So you have at least 3 continents hit with one 37-million causality war, then about 30 years later hit with another 600-million casualty war before they can barely recover from the first. And then they recover in 50 years to eliminate poverty, war, illness and all other social problems.

With all these wars and causalities and events added in, it sounded like overkill, or that the recovery was exaggerated to the point of being magical. Unless the Vulcans seriously gave technological aid.

 

[Timo]

Even when you separate the Eugenics Wars from WW3, it makes it sound like it should gave been a lot worse.

The Eugenics wars - 37 million killed. Involved Europe, Asia at least. Spock said 'whole populations' were bombed out of existence. He said Earth was on the verge of a "dark ages".

Except the 37 million figure never applied to this conflict - it applied to WWIII, in a different bit of dialogue. We don't know which populations got bombed, but the word itself does not necessarily indicate large numbers of people. Say, bombing for the sake of ethnic cleansing (perhaps appropriate for a war about eugenics) might target very small groups of Others.

That sounds like a lot of major destruction. Economic upheaval. Diseases. Infrastructure badly damaged.

Well, Earth was only "on the verge". The actual dark ages eventually did come, in the 21st century, and apparently in connection with WWIII. The 1990s might not have been all that different from ours yet.

This clashes with what we see in Voyager. It didn't look like earth was on the verge of a dark age. It looked like everyone was going happily along and Americans were blissfully unaware of what was going on .

Yet this would have been true of most of WWI or WWII, too.

So following this, Europe, and Asia only had 30 years to recover before they're hit with ANOTHER war, WW3 in 2026.

Actually, nothing suggests 2026, while ST:FC says the nuclear exchange was in 2053 or thereabouts, or "approximately ten years after the Third World War" as Data puts it, on the basis of radioactives.

A WWIII that drags on for thirty years is of course an option - the so-called "broken-back scenario" where two utterly crippled sides keep on fighting with dwindling resources and stockpiles they cannot replenish. But in "Past Tense II", O'Brien feels that 2048 was okay before time travel messed it up. Indeed, the whole "mid-21st century" was okay in his history books, presumably until WWIII - making it quite likely that the war indeed only started in 2053 sharp, and ended in 2053 sharp.

This time 600 million killed. Major cities destroyed. The US is involved.

Although in what role, we don't exactly know. The US and the ECON were on opposing sides, and apparently the US was hit to some degree, but we never saw anything specific that would have been hit. No city is mentioned as having been targeted or lost. No craters of significance pop up in Trek, either. Perhaps WWIII followed the pattern of WWI and WWII, with the US remaining more or less intact, untouched by weapons, and the government collapsed for indirect reasons such as global economic breakdown.

Then there's that tricky character colonel Greene who looked and sounded very American who killed hundreds of thousands of civilians.

Which doesn't sound all that exceptional for a routine conflict between humans.

So you have at least 3 continents hit with one 37-million causality war, then about 30 years later hit with another 600-million casualty war before they can barely recover from the first.

Nope, just that one war with the explicit millions of dead (although accounts vary between 37 and 600). If the death count of the Eugenics Wars in between were anywhere near the same range, Spock probably would bring this up when listing WWI, WWII and WWIII in "Bread and Circuses". (Although he was ready to "go on", and since WWIII was the end of human internecine slaughtering, he'd have to insert his subsequent figures either in between the WWs or then before the first one.)

With all these wars and causalities and events added in, it sounded like overkill, or that the recovery was exaggerated to the point of being magical. Unless the Vulcans seriously gave technological aid.

Well, humans did bounce back from the WWI/WWII combo, which is nothing short of science fiction. I guess it helps that we had so much practice.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

Let's also remember that the death toll of WWII was 37 million people. This is a figure Spock ...

This is Spock once again confusing the Eugenics Wars with WW3, just as he did in Space Seed.

 

[Timo]

We may decide that he erred twice, or that he wisened up the second time, after having embarrassed himself in front of McCoy. There's nothing wrong in thinking that the later, "Bread" commentary is factually correct.

Conversely, thinking that WWIII for Spock is Eugenics War doesn't help out with anything much; Spock's erroneous belief that the World Wars ended with Khan's Konflict is not consistent with him thinking that he can "go on" past WWIII in his list of mankind's sins, say.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[The Old Mixer]

I think that the Eugenics Wars and TNG's WWIII were one and the same. TNG was just retconning the dates.

 

[Timo]

It doesn't sound likely that Roddenberry in writing "Encounter at Farpoint" would have been thinking of the Eugenics Wars, or even remembering that they existed. Heck, whether they played any role even in the writing of Wrath of Khan is debatable. (Yet what he wrote is "retconning" in the sense that he's not afraid to introduce all-new pseudohistory without constraint, dropping United Earth and Apocalyptic Court dates with abandon. He's not sorting out old loose ends but creating noodlefuls of new ones.)

The thing about genetic engineering taboos only makes a writing comeback in "Up the Long Ladder" more than a year later. And nobody does much to address timeline issues, until DS9 and ST:FC both directly tackle the rapidly approaching 21st century, with coarsely compatible takes.

Later writing seems to separate eugenics and WWIII with rather active measures, with Colonel Green explicated as a postwar figure, and with Khan returned to the 1990s without remorse...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Guy Gardener]

Outraged and repulsed at what the Mariposans have done, the three transport directly to the cloning labs. Inside, two clones are incubating: clones derived from their cells. Riker proceeds to destroy his maturing clone with his phaser, and Pulaski's clone with her permission, to the chagrin of Prime Minister Granger. A heated argument ensues. Riker accuses the Mariposans of stealing, but Wilson counters that desperation had forced their hand; they have a right to survive.

Up the long ladder had nothing to to do with a Eugenics taboo. The cloning process sucked. Replicative fading. Copy of a copy of a copy. 3 hundred years was the limit to how long they could keep making new healthy clones, without fresh biological samples.

Even killing the clones at the end was a question of consent, but did you notice Riker asking permission of the original Pulaski to murder her clone? That's weird. He's only allowed to kill his own clones. Run Tom! Run! That's almost as weird as Kate almost being Will's step mother, but soon if the Mariposians had gotten away with it, thousands of their clones would have been married off and banging each other.

 

[Timo]

Which is sorta what I mean. The story establishes futuristic mores about how to deal with cloning and the like (all happily bunched up under "genetic engineering" in general Trek). This and "Unnatural Selection" are the closest the show comes to dealing with eugenics and the passions involved, and neither bothers to refer to Khan. I doubt (most of) the writers of early TNG were thinking in terms of doing a sequel to TOS at all, during the early years. Instead of retconning, they were establishing new and to a degree parallel things; the whole kit and kaboodle would then later be reinterpreted into something resembling continuity. Mainly in DS9, which was written by folks who loved their TOS and TAS. And then a bit more clumsily in ENT.

...did you notice Riker asking permission of the original Pulaski to murder her clone?

...I almost did. There's that quick exchange of glances there, open to perverse interpretation.

He's only allowed to kill his own clones.

Or perhaps anybody he suspects of being a clone of somebody?

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Arpy]

In my head canon all these happen in an alternative universe that would allow for the events to happen as fully as intended. In one alternative universe ENT never happened; in another it happened with more radiation and rubble and forgiveness and tension as the humans tried it anew.

I never read the Eugenics Wars Treklit which suggest the wars happened in our world while the culture didn’t notice. I may ones day. There’s enough death and political bs in the world that you could interpret things in different ways. Maybe future sociologists will discover all sorts of things using quantitative analyses from computer data. And maybe we’ll flat out discover in newly unclassified reports where the hundred fifty billion the Pentagon misplaced went.

Or maybe Riker was just wrong on that one number. 600 million died in the initial nuclear barrage and another two billion in others after, by conventional weapons, and by radiation, starvation, and chaos. Another three billion or whatever got sick or were wounded? Everyone’s money was devalued, local warlords rose up. Another Cold War after among the nuclear powers left or new ones who weren’t before?

 

[Shawnster]

Which is sorta what I mean. The story establishes futuristic mores about how to deal with cloning and the like (all happily bunched up under "genetic engineering" in general Trek). This and "Unnatural Selection" are the closest the show comes to dealing with eugenics and the passions involved, and neither bothers to refer to Khan. I doubt (most of) the writers of early TNG were thinking in terms of doing a sequel to TOS at all, during the early years. Instead of retconning, they were establishing new and to a degree parallel things; the whole kit and kaboodle would then later be reinterpreted into something resembling continuity. Mainly in DS9, which was written by folks who loved their TOS and TAS. And then a bit more clumsily in ENT.

The Eugenics Wars and Khan are both explicitly mentioned, though, in DS9 "Doctor Bashir, I Presume."

BENNETT: I don't think so. Two hundred years ago we tried to improve the species through DNA resequencing, and what did we get for our trouble? The Eugenics Wars. For every Julian Bashir that can be created, there's a Khan Singh waiting in the wings. A superhuman whose ambition and thirst for power have been enhanced along with his intellect. The law against genetic engineering provides a firewall against such men and it's my job to keep that firewall intact. I've made my offer. Do you accept?

Bennett does get the year wrong. They were not intentionally trying to retcon the Eugenics Wars to the late 21st Century.

This is Spock once again confusing the Eugenics Wars with WW3, just as he did in Space Seed.

Spock is woefully untrustworthy when it comes to world war death tolls.

SPOCK: Situations quite familiar to the six million who died in your first world war, the eleven million who died in your second, the thirty seven million who died in your third. Shall I go on?

When in reality:
World War I - 40 million, not six. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_I_casualties

World War II - 70 to 85 million, not eleven https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/World_War_II_casualties

 

[Tenacity]

Which is sorta what I mean. The story establishes futuristic mores about how to deal with cloning and the like

Or how you deal with people you just personally don't want to exist.

Or then he meant exactly what he said, which was that "all the major cities" were destroyed. It's just that as of the 2050s, the world only had a dozen major cities,

Or maybe two cities. From what we know of the Trek universe, there are only two cities, Paris and San Fransisco.

 

[Prax]

I believe Los Angeles fell into the ocean at some point.

 

[uniderth]

Between 2063 and 2079.

What we see in First Contact is just a small settlement in the woods. I can imagine things in more populated areas are much worse off. I prefer a much more devastating WWIII. So I interpret Riker's 600 million dead statement as those killed during the initial attacks, but the fall out killed many more. So we're definitely looking at continued descent of civilization.

At the same time though I think we're looking at fairly populated solar system. Prior to the nuclear war we earth would have been the hub of the solar system economy. But after the attack that would be gone. Venus, Mars, and outer solar system colonies would be push to the limits. However, getting off world would be one of the preferable options.

I have to wonder what impact the arrival of the Vulcanians had. Sure they landed in a space craft but for the most part they look like humans wearing pointy ears. Who's going to believe they're extraterestials? Not to mention, who's going to care?

When you're struggling just to get food, eat the spacemen. Though the few governments left might want to get their hands on the alien technology.

In my interpretation of this time Vulcanians didn't have FTL technology and it was Zefram Cochrane that discovered it for the whole local region of space. So the Vulcanians would be interested in the technology, but contacting their home world wouldn't be feasible without Cochrane's technology. They would want to see the continued development of it as well.

Between 2063 and 2065 we'd see the development of the space warp drive. The technology of which was eventually installed aboard existing spacecraft.
Some of the Vulcanian crew members probably returned home aboard Valiant which was launched in 2063.

Wherever Cochrane continued to develop the technology would have become a hub of activity allowing for some form of protection from the ravages going on elsewhere.

 

[Timo]

ST:FC gives us a nice balance that we can tip to either direction at our preference. Sure, here we have strange folks squatting on USAF property and playing with weapons of mass destruction. But they seem like decent folks, scientists and engineers and technicians all, and while they are drinking a lot (from a tidy and well-equipped bar that is stocked with brand products ten years after the war), they aren't exactly mowing down zombies with machine guns or anything. Is the US down or not? Since we just see this one base in Montana, we can't really tell.

Riker has his own ideas on how the globe is faring. But he is from the far future - and everything he thinks he knows about Zephram Cochrane and his work is dead wrong. So we can accept that he errs. And then choose which way he errs...

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Shawnster]

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[Tenacity]

What we see in First Contact is just a small settlement in the woods.

Data says that it's part of missile complex, dozens maybe hundreds of missile silos like the one we see. If America were to have been attacked, you'd think a major target like a missile base would been destroyed.

 

[Timo]

Perhaps it was? The weapons system might have been knocked out without nuking the pine trees - an EMP weapon fired against the base, or its distant, distributed command assets hit.

Or perhaps all the missiles* were fired in a first strike, eliminating the counterstrike or making it futile and leading to its cancellation/redirecting. Or then whatever protected San Francisco also protected this site, and did its job well.

Timo Saloniemi

* Save for the one put aside for this black project on FTL engines and thus disarmed, of course.

 

[uniderth]

Data says that it's part of missile complex, dozens maybe hundreds of missile silos like the one we see. If America were to have been attacked, you'd think a major target like a missile base would been destroyed.

True. I always interpreted the phrase "missile complex" to mean the missile silo and its associated infrastructure, making up the complex; rather than a complex of missile silos. But we never see a long distance shot so it could go either way.