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Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

Drop the Section 31 show for a the Pike show?

  • Yes, I want a Pike show, and do not want a Section 31 show.

    Votes: 124 55.9%
  • No, I want a Section 31 show, and do not want a show with Pike.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • I want a show that feature both Pike and crew on the Enterprise and Section 31 with Georgiou.

    Votes: 23 10.4%
  • I trust CBS to give me something I will like!

    Votes: 12 5.4%
  • I want to see both! as separate shows.

    Votes: 54 24.3%

  • Total voters
    222
I'm not huge fan of DS9 and I agree with a lot of Clegg's criticism, it is actually only part of Trek franchise that contains acceptable S31 episodes. As it originally was presented, it could have all been just a ruse. An ancient far reaching conspiracy... which didn't actually exist and was just something Sloan made up to fool Bashir.
There remains the possibilty that section 31 did exist but by Sloan's time it didn't, and he was just a rogue working with a few other like minded partisans (more than a few, since they were able to engineer the virus that helped end the war).

Still, even in DS9 there seemed some plausible-deniability by the admiralty about it.
 
The new S31 could simply be called "Starfleet Intelligence," but no one's gonna watch that show. The old S31 was totally elusive, unknown to anyone. They didn't even have a name. They were protected by Starfleet command. They only dealt with global threats. They were very powerful, and could seemingly use whomever they wanted at Starfleet. They didn't have badges they could whip out and say "Hi, I'm agent Muldur of Section 31." They also couldn't be tracked or followed, so people didn't even bother trying.
 
Cutting and pasting what I typed on May 26th, 2019 in this very thread:

So I'm going to look to see what I find in the DS9 Companion now -- because I said I would -- and then wrap this all up in a tiny, little bow. One way or another. Let's see what they say...

Only quoting the relevant parts.

Quoted from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion" (2000), written by Terry J. Erdmann with Paula M. Block
Page 551-552:
"Section 31 grew out of a line of dialogue in 'The Maquis, Part II,'" Ira Steven Behr says, still intrigued by the subtext of the words he'd written in the second-season teleplay: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."

"It came from my growing realization that we could do more with the Star Trek franchise than we'd initially thought we could. It was the idea of culpability, the idea that we should avoid knocking the Federation and we should avoid knocking Starfleet, but we could knock elements of them."

The theories behind Section 31 are diabolical. "Why is Earth a paradise in the twenty-fourth century?" Behr asks. "Well, maybe it's because there's someone watching over it and doing the nasty stuff that no one wants to think about. Of course it's a very complicated issue," he adds. "Extremely complicated. And those kinds of covert operations are usually wrong!"

When Behr saw an opportunity to explore the dark side of paradise, he took it. The result was "Inquisition". Of course, as one would expect from the executive producer's creative mind, he found that opportunity in the most unlikely of places, in what Bradley Thompson calls "a cute little romp about dealing with the Department of Motor Vehicles on a Sunday."

That "cute little romp" was one of many story ideas purchased from freelancers over the years. In this one, "Bashir went to a planet to do something really nice, like saving the lives of everyone on the whole planet," Thompson says. "He parked his runabout in orbit, and when he finished doing this wonderful thing, he found out that his runabout had been towed and he had a parking ticket! So he had to go up against the bureaucracy. It was the ultimate genetically engineered human against the ultimate bureaucratic red tape."

"When Brad told me about that story, I said, 'That's Franz Kafka's The Trial, with Bashir,'" comments David Weddle. "The Trial has always been one of my favorite novels. Then we went to lunch with Ira and told him about it, and he immediately spun it into the concept that you see in the episode, with this secret organization in Starfleet that's interrogating Bashir through a holoprogram that he doesn't realize is a holoprogram. And that's where we started writing."

"Suddenly, it stopped being a romp and it became this nightmare," Thompson laughs.

"I wanted to do something with spies and Bashir in the real world, after doing it in the holosuite so much," Behr explains -- although, ironically, the story still wound up taking place in a holosuite.

"The idea of establishing a behind-the-scenes, shadowy organization was very much Ira's thing," notes Rene Echevarria, who provided input on the script, "But we have to thank Brad and David for the work they did with Sloan as the inquisitor. They did a lot of research and managed to put together a very compelling case for Bashir in fact being what Sloan was saying he was. They found things that could be construed as suspicious in "Statistical Probabilities" and all the way back in "Hippocratic Oath".
 
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I'm not huge fan of DS9 and I agree with a lot of Clegg's criticism, it is actually only part of Trek franchise that contains acceptable S31 episodes. As it originally was presented, it could have all been just a ruse. An ancient far reaching conspiracy... which didn't actually exist and was just something Sloan made up to fool Bashir.
What makes it so unacceptable now? Is Star Trek so precariously built that it cannot examine very difficult, very real-world, challenges? Is there so little faith in the Star Trek audience that they can't figure out that Section 31 is very much wrong? Can the optimistic future of the Federation not endure even the slightest hint of darkness?
 
"Why is Earth a paradise in the twenty-fourth century?" Behr asks. "Well, maybe it's because there's someone watching over it and doing the nasty stuff that no one wants to think about. Of course it's a very complicated issue,"
I hate this idea with a burning passion. Behr should have never ever been allowed to touch Star Trek after uttering this. It is a complete betrayal of the core principles of the franchise.
 
What makes it so unacceptable now? Is Star Trek so precariously built that it cannot examine very difficult, very real-world, challenges? Is there so little faith in the Star Trek audience that they can't figure out that Section 31 is very much wrong? Can the optimistic future of the Federation not endure even the slightest hint of darkness?
Star Trek was about the humanity building a better future. And that doesn't need to be perfect. There can be mistakes, missteps and personal moral failures. Having a space Gestapo to do your dirty work however is not a minor blemish, it is an utter disgrace. If Federation's success is built on S31 doing evil shit in the shadows the Federation is a lie.If the Federation allows S31 to exist the Federation is evil.

And fiction has a viewpoint, even though you do not seem to understand this. If the people doing immoral things are represented as cool badasses wearing black and making funny quips a large portion of audience end up cheering for them. Happened with Dukat, Happened with Lorca, happened with the Cannibal Empress.
 
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Cutting and pasting what I typed on May 26th, 2019 in this very thread:

So I'm going to look to see what I find in the DS9 Companion now -- because I said I would -- and then wrap this all up in a tiny, little bow. One way or another. Let's see what they say...

Only quoting the relevant parts.

Quoted from "Star Trek: Deep Space Nine Companion" (2000), written by Terry J. Erdmann with Paula M. Block
Page 551-552:
"Section 31 grew out of grew out of a line of dialogue in 'The Maquis, Part II,'" Ira Steven Behr says, still intrigued by the subtext of the words he'd written in the second-season teleplay: "It's easy to be a saint in paradise."

"It came from my growing realization that we could do more with the Star Trek franchise than we'd initially thought we could. It was the idea of culpability, the idea that we should avoid knocking the Federation and we should avoid knocking Starfleet, but we could knock elements of them."

The theories behind Section 31 are diabolical. "Why is Earth a paradise in the twenty-fourth century?" Behr asks. "Well, maybe it's because there's someone watching over it and doing the nasty stuff that no one wants to think about. Of course it's a very complicated issue," he adds. "Extremely complicated. And those kinds of covert operations are usually wrong!"

When Behr saw an opportunity to explore the dark side of paradise, he took it. The result was "Inquisition". Of course, as one would expect from the executive producer's creative mind, he found that opportunity in the most unlikely of places, in what Bradley Thompson calls "a cute little romp about dealing with the Department of Motor Vehicles on a Sunday."

That "cute little romp" was one of many story ideas purchased from freelancers over the years. In this one, "Bashir went to a planet to do something really nice, like saving the lives of everyone on the whole planet," Thompson says. "He parked his runabout in orbit, and when he finished doing this wonderful thing, he found out that his runabout had been towed and he had a parking ticket! So he had to go up against the bureaucracy. It was the ultimate genetically engineered human against the ultimate bureaucratic red tape."

"When Brad told me about that story, I said, 'That's Franz Kafka's The Trial, with Bashir,'" comments David Weddle. "The Trial has always been one of my favorite novels. Then we went to lunch with Ira and told him about it, and he immediately spun it into the concept that you see in the episode, with this secret organization in Starfleet that's interrogating Bashir through a holoprogram that he doesn't realize is a holoprogram. And that's where we started writing."

"Suddenly, it stopped being a romp and it became this nightmare," Thompson laughs.

"I wanted to do something with spies and Bashir in the real world, after doing it in the holosuite so much," Behr explains -- although, ironically, the story still wound up taking place in a holosuite.

"The idea of establishing a behind-the-scenes, shadowy organization was very much Ira's thing," notes Rene Echevarria, who provided input on the script, "But we have to thank Brad and David for the work they did with Sloan as the inquisitor. They did a lot of research and managed to put together a very compelling case for Bashir in fact being what Sloan was saying he was. They found things that could be construed as suspicious in "Statistical Probabilities" and all the way back in "Hippocratic Oath".
This came up in another recent thread. With the addition of these quotes, it seems that Behr was just totally hung up on this one idea from early TNG to the very end of DS9 "What ugly secrets are hiding in the foundation of paradise?"

It's like the "outrage impulse" was burning hot in him, and he took every opportunity to yell "hypocrite!," possibly at Gene, and put it into the mouth of any character.
 
This came up in another recent thread. With the addition of these quotes, it seems that Behr was just totally hung up on this one idea from early TNG to the very end of DS9 "What ugly secrets are hiding in the foundation of paradise?"

It's like the "outrage impulse" was burning hot in him, and he took every opportunity to yell "hypocrite!," possibly at Gene, and put it into the mouth of any character.
Yes. And it is apparent in many parts of DS9, and it has soured that series for me, despite its many good qualities. If you don't believe in Star Trek then perhaps do not write for Star Trek.
 
And a fiction has a viewpoint, even though you do not seem to understand this. If the people doing immoral things are represented as cool badasses wearing black and making funny quips a large portion of audience end up cheering for them. Happened with Dukat, Happened with Lorca, happened with the Cannibal Empress.
Please don't assume my mindset.

As I have stated, people have made funny quips about death in Trek before. That doesn't make them cool. People have cheered on anti-heroes and evil people before. That's doesn't make them evil.
Star Trek was about the humanity building a better future. And that doesn't need to be perfect. There can be mistakes, missteps and personal moral failures. Having a space Gestapo to do your dirty work however is not a minor blemish, it is an utter disgrace.If Federation allows S31 to exist the Federation is evil. If the Federations success is built on S31 doing evil shit in the shadows the Federation is a lie.
I have no idea if the Federation's success is built on S31 or not. We haven't seen that as such. And, no, the comments of writers do not count, since I have been told repeatedly that the writer's intent of DSC being Prime doesn't count.

What S31 does, for me, is make the Federation more human. Humanity is not going to evolve past fear and panic at being powerless. Humanity will have to grow through that. And Section 31 is that part that humans are growing past, until it becomes less needed. I think that is what S31 was. A part of old Earth, old humanity, that kept slipping in to try and assert its power in the face of fear. And, come TNG, it became less relevant, less necessary, as cooperation and diplomacy replaced fear and irrationality.

It does not make the Federation a dystopia. It makes it more compliacted than simply "Humans evolved."

This came up in another recent thread. With the addition of these quotes, it seems that Behr was just totally hung up on this one idea from early TNG to the very end of DS9 "What ugly secrets are hiding in the foundation of paradise?"

It's like the "outrage impulse" was burning hot in him, and he took every opportunity to yell "hypocrite!," possibly at Gene, and put it into the mouth of any character.
Gene was a hypocrite. So is probably Behr. As am I.

However, his question is of interest to me, as to what evil may lurk in the hearts of men type exploration. Kind of like how we humans nowadays do not believe people can be purely altruistic. Always looking for an ulterior motive.

Ultimately, DSC and DS9 are reflections of the culture in which they are produced, showcasing the mindset, fears, and beliefs of the production team. Those are not failings-they are opportunities for exploration.
 
I like anyone versus the Bureaucracy. Bureaucrats are just robots (robots, not androids) in human form.

And if Control is a form of Robot Life, then not so surprising it took over Section 31, if you think about it like that.
It always seems to me that our heroes fought against the bureaucracy. Kirk would argue against admirals, as would Picard, and Sisko. It is always interesting to see such a fight.
 
That doesn't make it good art.

Star Trek prides itself on being 'intelligent.' But drowning itself in fallacious pablum is anything but intelligent, thus making it cheap pretense and hard to take with any amount of serious credibility.

Pale Moonlight is the perfect example of this. It presents this (rather childish) argument of 'oooh the world is a scary place where wrong and right don't exist' forcing the main character to get his hands dirty. And by "hands dirty" I mean conspire in a capital crime, completely abandoning everything the franchise stands for under the rationalization it was his only option. But that 'only option' part is rooted in a false dilemma. So not only does it abandon the ideals of the franchise, but it does so erroneously. It's basically the same reason people hate the ending of Man of Steel.
 
I do like the episode, and I don't think anyone could argue it's not well well done; but tragedy, it is not. He not only succeeds and reaps the benefits. There are no consequences or negative repercussions.
 
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