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Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?

Drop the Section 31 show for a the Pike show?

  • Yes, I want a Pike show, and do not want a Section 31 show.

    Votes: 124 55.9%
  • No, I want a Section 31 show, and do not want a show with Pike.

    Votes: 9 4.1%
  • I want a show that feature both Pike and crew on the Enterprise and Section 31 with Georgiou.

    Votes: 23 10.4%
  • I trust CBS to give me something I will like!

    Votes: 12 5.4%
  • I want to see both! as separate shows.

    Votes: 54 24.3%

  • Total voters
    222
Laid bare. I can respect that.
As is often the case the reality of life never quite matches up to expectations.

I applaud Discovery for taking the plunge as the S31 storylines in DS9 were great but they just tried to do too much too fast, would have been better if the they had taken more time introducing us properly to S31, with Lorca being a member and using his character to show that S31 isnt necessarily the bogey man some think, bringing in the MU so early made it too much for some to swallow and adding MU Georgiou to the mix broke the camels back even further.

Now they have added time travel as well.

I hope they know what they are doing.
 
I don't see a problem with Section-31 existing in Star Trek.

Kirk essentially admitted to Anon-7 that Humans have a dark side and that they have to try every day NOT to give into that. ("A Taste of Armageddon")

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But what he never indicated is that humans always succeed, even in his time.
(See Captain Ron Tracy for just one example)
:cool:
 
I don't see a problem with Section-31 existing in Star Trek.
I don't either. And personally, I think that Section 31 existing in the TOS timeline is quite natural for humans at the time. Yes, I can understand why some individuals don't like it, are horrified by the idea, or find Section 31 at odds with the Federation's ideals. And yet, I think that Section 31 reflects humanity's evolution towards the far more idealistic, more utopian, future of TNG.

TOS is not the evolved humanity of TNG, and I think that needs to be kept in mind. There was still bigotry, sexism, and corruption, even at the highest levels of leadership. Even Kirk was quite capable of such struggles, with his view of Klingons being fully on display in Star Trek VI, quite a similar reaction to Kor's "Never!" in "Errand of Mercy."

And, Kirk is not the only one. Certainly, Admiral Cartwright demonstrates a similar attitude as Admiral Cornwell, a willingness to allow the complete destruction of the Klingons for the sake of his own fear. And that attitude extended to several other leaders.

I think that Star Trek VI is the turning point for the Federation and the diminishing of Section 31. It is the evolution that people want to see, but it didn't come with a lot of pain, fear, darkness, and difficulty. That's why I think that Section 31, though distasteful, is a natural outgrowth of human nature in the face of so many threats, a leftover of a more savage past.

Like most dark aspects of human nature, it is never altogether gone.
 
It is utterly shit way to deal with this theme. Having individuals whose moral compass is faulty is fine, having a government sanctioned Gestapo is not, and it makes the Federation a lie. And of course these evil assholes are not depicted as truly contemptible, they're depicted as cool and edgy badasses with snappy quips.
Totally agree! There is a difference between complicated ethical choice of a common citizen and "gray zone" morality of the government subsidied professional.
S31 in STDSC worked on me because they show a very logical end of secret services like that: a hidden transformation into a global threat which should be defeated by volunteers without these cool spy things.
 
Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham

I don't know about that my dude. A sham? I don't think an organisation having a darker side means that. We already knew Starfleet wasn't completely on the up and up way before Section 31, but I still find the organisation as a whole quite inspiring. Pretty sure I've used this quote before, but
" Star Trek did not promise that people would magically become inherently 'better,' but that they would progress, always reaching for their highest potential and noblest goals, even if it took centuries of taking two steps forward and one step back. " ~ Nichelle Nichols
 
So where's the progress? All those inspiring Trek speeches become very ugly if Kirk and Picard and co. know they're just a bunch of empty platitudes.

The argument, however realistic, that "human nature never changes" can't be squared with Trek's traditional conceit that we can become better if we try really hard. But, hey, at least now we can have funny quips about killing people.
 
Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham, since there's this SS flying around in a fleet of black ships doing all the Federation dirty work and that they're no conspiracy, but a legitimate branch of Starfleet.

I'm extremely pessimistic, so I'm totally on board with the idea.
Season 1 ends with the characters explicitly stating and proving that section 31 and Georgiou are wrong, the day is saved by Michael giving inspiring speeches to Cornwell and L'Rell and then trusting the latter to not nuke earth anyway after becoming chancellor.
In season 2 control is pretty much section 31's philosophy taken up to eleven and shows the potential consequences.

Section 31 is shown as a legitimate branch of starfleet but it's also shown to be wrong so the inspiring future isn't a sham, humanity is just struggling to live up to those ideals.
Many people seem to assume that the section 31 show would be about badasses in black leather poisoning and stabbing people so that doofuses like Picard can be born and live in their sham utopia when it could just as well be about the bad asses in black leather realizing how fucked up section 31 is and destroying it from within.
 
Because DS9 was already puerile, chauvinistic tripe.

The post brought to you by the 1990s.

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If "Blood Oath" had been the only hour of Star Trek to feature Klingons in all the shows and films, I would say "Wow, those guys are savages. Were they really gonna do that?! Dax is into some weird sh**!" But since Klingons are so known and oversaturated throughout the series, along with the way Kor and his friends talk, I have to conclude this is hyperbolic and idiomatic language, something we use all the time and never really think about.

IMO, this is all the more interesting anyway. It's like the strange idioms/expressions used in ancient writings(especially the bible) that modern people might read at face value, but show the colorful ways of expressing ideas that other cultures used

To be honest, I actually find the idea interesting that Klingons don't have that human aversion to cannibalism as a thing itself. It makes them, well, alien.

I'm really more on an anti-execute prisoners for pleasure trip. That was already stupid ugly on DIS. Making such a vile person the hero of her own show sours me on the whole creative team behind the scenes.

Discovery implicitly says that inspiring future has always been a sham, since there's this SS flying around in a fleet of black ships doing all the Federation dirty work and that they're no conspiracy, but a legitimate branch of Starfleet.

I'm extremely pessimistic, so I'm totally on board with the idea.

Thanks, I hate it.

Mere existence of S31 is detrimental to the franchise.

Actually, I think they really do work great - as the BADGUYs.

To show the Star Trek humans have moved on. But there is a constant push to fall back to it's barbaric tendencies, that constantly has to be fought.

Like TNG's "The drumhead". That was a great episode, and that topic is universal throughout all of human history, and is as relevant now (or, post 9-11 even more!) than it was in the 80s.

They just have to be aware to not fall into the trap of making S31 a cool revenge fantasy with slick gadgets. Which... yeah...
 
So where's the progress? All those inspiring Trek speeches become very ugly if Kirk and Picard and co. know they're just a bunch of empty platitudes.

The argument, however realistic, that "human nature never changes" can't be squared with Trek's traditional conceit that we can become better if we try really hard. But, hey, at least now we can have funny quips about killing people.
First of all, we have had quips about killing people long before this.

Secondly, the progress is in the choice. As Kirk would say we are killers but we choose not to kill today. Instead of wanting to kill the other, we have the capacity to move past our savage and protective instincts and celebrate differences and diversity.
 
I'm really more on an anti-execute prisoners for pleasure trip. That was already stupid ugly on DIS. Making such a vile person the hero of her own show sours me on the whole creative team behind the scenes.
As the saying goes, everyone is the hero of their own story. I was fascinated by an old AOL chat with DS9 producers where they discussed how they tried to make Dukat more evil because audiences liked him so much and really celebrated him And, I think that if Garak had his own show there would be a similar response.

I honestly do not understand that because a character is a lead in a show that automatically makes everything they do good, or gives tacit approval of their actions. I really would like to think that an audience member can make up their own mind as to whether or not a character is a "hero" or morally right. I don't need the show to spell it out for me.
 
The post brought to you by the 1990s.
Um, no. It's exactly the opposite. While one could make the "for its time" argument with DS9 (one to which I don't subscribe), it doesn't hold up in the "post-woke world" - or whatever you want to call it - at all. Like way, way less than any of the other shows. And frankly, I find its recent self-aggrandizing to be misguided and woefully out of touch.

It's extremely misogynistic - or at least presented a huge regression in its treatment of women, such that neither of its two "strong female characters" could escape it.

The disgusting treatment of Marina Sirtis was superseded by the even more disgusting treatment of Terry Farrell. But at least Jadzia got to spew the sciencey gobbledygook of the week, whilst having to fight off Julian's constant creepy AF behavior. Oh, and she got married just in time to see the inside of the fridge. So there's that.

Kira spent most of the series being defined by whichever man she was dating. Also Dukat. This is tragic because she's otherwise the best character in the franchise. Then there's "His Way," in which any deconstruction under a modern lens should find it problematic.

And most times Jadzia and Kira were together were Bechdel fails.

Having two women as villains could have been a huge plus. But nope. Both were so bad that they can only be seen as a negative. The Kia was utterly incompetent when left to her own devices. Her two big power plays were at the behest of men. And the Founder never amounted to anything more than a mother hen, nagging her male subordinates and incapable of doing anything on her own. (The only Founders who took any active action were male*.)

*And this in and itself presents a missed opportunity. The Founders could have been presented as being distinctly non-binary. But they didn't. The binary genders only became more pronounced as the show progressed.

Then there's Leeta, whose sole existence was to satisfy the male gaze. It looked for a while towards the end she might get some substance. But no. Well, that's not true. She got married. At least STO finally gave Chase something to do.

One could also argue that, despite being the one with the POC captain, it's the least diverse show, especially if you account for the oft-celebrated "extended cast." It's a couple of women, Marc Alaimo, and a whole bunch of white dudes. And here again. They had a Sudanese Muslim in the cast. In the 1990s. What a huge opportunity this was! And nothing.

But it's the show's pro-military stance that's the most topical.

There's that old argument of whether or not Starfleet is a military. I always say of course it is because, well, of course it is. But with all the other shows there's the whole thing where it's "It's a military but does other things too." as suggested through whatever the euphemism of choice is. But not with DS9. It is a military and only a military. Its sole function is to protect Federation borders and/or interests (The Wormhole) that morphs into full-on interventionism in the later seasons. The pilot episode sees it planting its flag (with the flagship) and annexing new territory.

But it's more than that. DS9 doesn't just celebrate the military. It fetishizes it, in the same way a CBS procedural might. This is fine for CBS procedural but not for Star Trek. A lot of the dialog - especially Sisko's speeches - parrot World War II propaganda films. Plus, Sisko is a Christ-like figure, so these speeches are literally by the living Jingo. O'Brien and Bashir run off to the holodeck to play in romanticized recreations of bloody battles. And you have characters (Rom Nog :( Kira) whose character arcs - and betterment as people - are characterized by their uniforms. And this all fine in and of itself.

However, the problem arises because this military is presented as being the gold standard - the ideal that holds precedence over all other things. It's the military that makes Bajor better. It makes Cardassia better. It even makes Ferenginar better through Rom becoming Nagus. This all makes everything Eddington says 100% true. And they brand him a traitor and throw him in jail for saying so. It's with this that the Federation becomes imperialistic in nature. Which is the core of the problem.

As I said during the discussion about the possibility of Disco S3 being a fall of the Federation thing, you can't have Star Trek without the Federation. But what I really mean is you can't have Star Trek without Starfleet. Within the context (and subtext) of the franchise, Starfleet is the metaphor - the analog - for the conceit. It is working together in peaceful coexistence put into action. But that's not the Starfleet of DS9. In DS9, groups are forced to work together at the end of a gun or because of some Chanakyan existential crisis. It is antithetical to the very heart of the franchise.

And so is Section 31 for much the same reason.
 
^Much of that I would agree with; however, I enjoyed DS9 much more than TNG, VOY, ENT. MUCH more. Antithetical to the heart of the franchise or no, I'm down for more.
 
Except, that peaceful coexistence did not occur even in TOS. How often did Kirk come running in and completely destroy a culture without concern to possible consequences? The peaceful coexistence certainly was the TNG-conceit, but that was not the "heart of the franchise" in TOS era, which I think DS9 more epitomizes, with that symbolism being Sisko meeting Kirk in a very hero worship sort of a way.

We can lament DS9's treatment of women, which, as you say, is made worse by looking back on it. But, I cannot agree that DS9 is fully antithetical to "heart of the franchise" when TOS' beginnings was about a unified humanity.
 
Um, no. It's exactly the opposite. While one could make the "for its time" argument with DS9 (one to which I don't subscribe), it doesn't hold up in the "post-woke world" - or whatever you want to call it - at all. Like way, way less than any of the other shows. And frankly, I find its recent self-aggrandizing to be misguided and woefully out of touch.

It's extremely misogynistic - or at least presented a huge regression in its treatment of women, such that neither of its two "strong female characters" could escape it.

The disgusting treatment of Marina Sirtis was superseded by the even more disgusting treatment of Terry Farrell. But at least Jadzia got to spew the sciencey gobbledygook of the week, whilst having to fight off Julian's constant creepy AF behavior. Oh, and she got married just in time to see the inside of the fridge. So there's that.

Kira spent most of the series being defined by whichever man she was dating. Also Dukat. This is tragic because she's otherwise the best character in the franchise. Then there's "His Way," in which any deconstruction under a modern lens should find it problematic.

And most times Jadzia and Kira were together were Bechdel fails.

Having two women as villains could have been a huge plus. But nope. Both were so bad that they can only be seen as a negative. The Kia was utterly incompetent when left to her own devices. Her two big power plays were at the behest of men. And the Founder never amounted to anything more than a mother hen, nagging her male subordinates and incapable of doing anything on her own. (The only Founders who took any active action were male*.)

*And this in and itself presents a missed opportunity. The Founders could have been presented as being distinctly non-binary. But they didn't. The binary genders only became more pronounced as the show progressed.

Then there's Leeta, whose sole existence was to satisfy the male gaze. It looked for a while towards the end she might get some substance. But no. Well, that's not true. She got married. At least STO finally gave Chase something to do.

One could also argue that, despite being the one with the POC captain, it's the least diverse show, especially if you account for the oft-celebrated "extended cast." It's a couple of women, Marc Alaimo, and a whole bunch of white dudes. And here again. They had a Sudanese Muslim in the cast. In the 1990s. What a huge opportunity this was! And nothing.

But it's the show's pro-military stance that's the most topical.

There's that old argument of whether or not Starfleet is a military. I always say of course it is because, well, of course it is. But with all the other shows there's the whole thing where it's "It's a military but does other things too." as suggested through whatever the euphemism of choice is. But not with DS9. It is a military and only a military. Its sole function is to protect Federation borders and/or interests (The Wormhole) that morphs into full-on interventionism in the later seasons. The pilot episode sees it planting its flag (with the flagship) and annexing new territory.

But it's more than that. DS9 doesn't just celebrate the military. It fetishizes it, in the same way a CBS procedural might. This is fine for CBS procedural but not for Star Trek. A lot of the dialog - especially Sisko's speeches - parrot World War II propaganda films. Plus, Sisko is a Christ-like figure, so these speeches are literally by the living Jingo. O'Brien and Bashir run off to the holodeck to play in romanticized recreations of bloody battles. And you have characters (Rom Nog :( Kira) whose character arcs - and betterment as people - are characterized by their uniforms. And this all fine in and of itself.

However, the problem arises because this military is presented as being the gold standard - the ideal that holds precedence over all other things. It's the military that makes Bajor better. It makes Cardassia better. It even makes Ferenginar better through Rom becoming Nagus. This all makes everything Eddington says 100% true. And they brand him a traitor and throw him in jail for saying so. It's with this that the Federation becomes imperialistic in nature. Which is the core of the problem.

As I said during the discussion about the possibility of Disco S3 being a fall of the Federation thing, you can't have Star Trek without the Federation. But what I really mean is you can't have Star Trek without Starfleet. Within the context (and subtext) of the franchise, Starfleet is the metaphor - the analog - for the conceit. It is working together in peaceful coexistence put into action. But that's not the Starfleet of DS9. In DS9, groups are forced to work together at the end of a gun or because of some Chanakyan existential crisis. It is antithetical to the very heart of the franchise.

And so is Section 31 for much the same reason.

I don't have time to get into all of this at the current moment. But I knew there had to be a lot more to it than your previous post. Thanks for elaborating.

"DS9 sucks!" was the "STD sucks!" of 20 years ago. Only reason I made the last post I did in this thread.
 
I'm not huge fan of DS9 and I agree with a lot of Clegg's criticism, it is actually only part of Trek franchise that contains acceptable S31 episodes. As it originally was presented, it could have all been just a ruse. An ancient far reaching conspiracy... which didn't actually exist and was just something Sloan made up to fool Bashir.
 
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