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Arrowverse's Crisis on Infinite Earths to be 5-Part Crossover

The parallel world doppelganger trope has always been antithetical to science - whether it be quantum mechanics or basic genetics.

Of course, but so are flying people, speedsters, time travelers, sorcerors, etc. What's important in a story is internal consistency. If identical doppelgangers are a thing in your fictional universe, it's a paradigm shift if you suddenly start throwing in non-identical ones, or humans who are doppelgangers for aliens. It's better worldbuilding if you stick with a consistent set of impossible fantasy rules than if you make up new and contradictory ones at a whim. If you're going to ask your audience to suspend disbelief and pretend that something impossible is real, it's best to make it easy for them by keeping it logically consistent within itself.


None the less, it seems a bit ridiculous to employ rationality, science, and reason as validation that all DCW versions of characters must look the same whilst ignoring the actual rationality, science, and reason.

One more time: I never said they "must" look the same, merely that they always had until now. Describing what the available evidence shows is not, and should never be misrepresented as, an absolutist assertion of universal truth.
 
It's not about what they said, it's about what the onscreen evidence showed. As I said, one bases a model on the evidence one has, and modifies it if -- but not until -- one receives conflicting evidence. If there's no direct evidence for something, that doesn't prove it can't exist, but it makes it premature to assume it does. Before Elseworlds, there was no evidence for non-identical doppelgangers. After Elseworlds, there was indirect evidence that at least a few existed (assuming Earth-90 was actually meant to be The Flash 1990 and not just a generally similar universe). Now, there will be direct proof that many exist (and indeed that one person can be a doppelganger of a completely different person, like Ray/Superman and Alura/Lois). So we amend our model in response to the evidence, not ahead of it.
I understand all that. I was actually directing my statement at @DigificWriter, who was acting like they are breaking some solid rule that they established, and all I was doing was saying that they never actually said all doppelgangers had to look the same, only that the ones we've seen so far do.
Just because a the only dogs a person has seen are Golden Retrievers that doesn't mean they should get upset if someone brings a Border Collie to their house.

Have they said they wouldn't try to cross with Titans? I don't recall.
You posted a link back in August that said they won't.
Maybe it's because Krypton is over (unless some other network or streamer picks it up). So far, they only seem to be crossing over with ended shows, not current shows, which could be legally, financially, and logistically trickier to cross with.
Could be, but Titans is another Berlanti produced DC show, so it's pretty close to the Arrowverse.

Or maybe they wanted to bring in as many alternates of Superman as they could, since they already have three.
I guess that could be it.
 
Could be, but Titans is another Berlanti produced DC show, so it's pretty close to the Arrowverse.

Is Titans still in production for the current season?

Most likely there's no cross over because the actors are either still in production or have just finished and thus not available for the Arrow event.
 
"Crisis on Earth-X" was far and away the best Arrowverse crossover to date (especially if you don't count one-offs like "Worlds Finest" and "Duet").
I do count those, along with "All Star Team Up", all the other marquee crossovers were better events, and there's an entire series that's the best Arrowverse crossover of all. :p
 
I understand all that. I was actually directing my statement at @DigificWriter, who was acting like they are breaking some solid rule that they established, and all I was doing was saying that they never actually said all doppelgangers had to look the same, only that the ones we've seen so far do.

Oh, I see.

Naturally, it's a work of fiction so they're free to make that change if they choose. But it is a shift in the implicit logic of how parallel worlds are presented. Before, you could safely assume that any alternate version of, say, the Green Arrow would be played by Stephen Amell, or conversely that any doppelganger played by, say, Helen Slater would be a version of Eliza Danvers. Now, that pattern is being discarded and all bets are off. The door is open for a Justin Hartley Green Arrow, a Helen Slater Supergirl, you name it. It's less consistent and messier now than it was. That's their prerogative, it's their made-up world and they can do what they want with it, but it is a paradigm shift.

Hmm. I wonder, could there be a Harrison Wells who isn't played by Tom Cavanaugh? Or is it only comics characters who have non-identical doubles? Or maybe there's something special about Wells, since he seems to be the individual with the largest number of known doppelgangers.


Could be, but Titans is another Berlanti produced DC show, so it's pretty close to the Arrowverse.

Black Lightning is a Berlanti-produced DC show, and they resisted crossing over for their first two seasons. As I've said before, I wouldn't be surprised if Titans wanted to stand apart and assert its own separate identity.
 
Is Titans still in production for the current season?

Most likely there's no cross over because the actors are either still in production or have just finished and thus not available for the Arrow event.
I'm not sure if they're still filming. The season is still airing on DC Universe, but I'm not sure if they filmed it all before it started airing or if they're still filming as it goes, like they do on regular TV shows.
It also films in Ontario, but Black Lightning films in Atlanta and they'll have cast members in Crisis. I believe Supergirl was also still filming in LA when they did their first crossover.
 
This comment tells me that you haven't actually watched much, if any, of the Arrowverse.
You really like making incorrect assumptions about things don't you.

I'm the only person who has expressed dismay at the abandonment of what the Arrowverse has previously established regarding Multiversal doppelgangers, but to dismiss what has been previously established as mere "viewer assumption" is to blatantly and directly ignore the contents of the various Arrowverse series themselves.
You're having a hissy fit because they're breaking some non-existent "rule" and being condescending because someone dared to point out said "rule" doesn't exist.

The only thing they've establish is there are multiple Earths. Some have identical counterparts. Some don't.





Once again: I never said it was an unbreakable rule, nor am I asserting that they cannot or should not change it. I am merely commenting on the fact that they have followed a pattern up to this point that they are no longer following. Commenting on a thing does not require taking an ideological stand on it. Observation is not judgment. First one has to accurately describe reality before one can formulate an opinion one way or the other.

In science and reason, you base your model only on the available evidence, and freely amend or abandon that model when new evidence contradicts it. It is certainly wrong to assume that your current model is inviolable for all time and that any further evidence must be rejected -- but that does not mean it is an "assumption" to formulate a model in the first place. It's an extrapolation from the data, a working guideline to use as long as it remains useful, i.e. until new data conflicts with it and requires it to be changed. As long as you don't mistake it for an inviolable article of faith, as long as you change it as needed to fit the facts rather than the reverse, then you're fine.

So the statement that all onscreen doppelgangers up to this point have been identical to their counterparts is merely a correct description of the data. Back when 100% of doppelgangers were identical, it was reasonable to use the model "doppelgangers are identical and contemporaneous with their counterparts (as far as we know)." Last year, when Elseworlds canonized the 1990 The Flash as Earth-90, this implicitly established the existence of at least a few non-identical, non-contemporaneous doppelgangers, but they were rare exceptions to the overall pattern, so the overall model still held with minor modification ("most doppelgangers are identical and contemporaneous"). Now, however, the data from Crisis on Infinite Earths require a major change to the model -- doppelgangers are often non-identical and non-contemporaneous, possibly even more often than not. Acknowledging that we need to adjust our model is not complaining or protesting or denying -- just the opposite.

Certainly I was happier when all doppelgangers were identical and there was a consistent pattern being followed. It's harder to justify there being a parallel Superman or Flash or whatever living a generation earlier or later than another. But data always outweigh hopes and preferences, so I adjust. I'm disappointed, yes, but I don't deny the new data.

It seems reasonable to conjecture that the 53-Earth multiverse established in Crisis on Earth-X is a "local" multiverse of closely parallel Earths that do have identical and contemporaneous doppelgangers as a rule, and that there's a wider multiverse beyond that cluster where the parallels are more indirect. Although that does make Earth-90 an anomaly, because it has at least a half-dozen identical doppelgangers or nearly so (Tina, Julio, Bellows, Trickster, Prank, and Barry as Jay/Henry's doppelganger) along with at least a few non-identical ones (Nora Allen, Iris, Scudder, etc.). Similarly, Sherloque Wells came from Earth-221, and he and Renee Adler have identical doppelgangers on dozens of Earths, including Earth-1.

Of course, the numbering of the Earths has been presented very inconsistently, and it's unclear just who decided on the numbers. So their numbering doesn't necessarily reflect anything about their relative proximity. And of course there's no real way to make sense of a multiverse incorporating different fictional iterations that were never intended to have any in-universe relationship to begin with.
I apologize for setting you off and making feel like you were being attacked. That wasn't my intention at all. I was simply pointing out there was no rule to break when the "they're breaking there own rules" type comments were made.

I understand that since they've mainly used the "identical counterpart" trope for the few Earths we've seen some would assume they're all like that and be a little annoyed when they suddenly go the non-trope route. Thing is there's never been anything stated that makes non-trope counterparts impossible and since this is an "everything including the kitchen sink" event there should be no surprise there going to have them.
 
I'm not sure if they're still filming. The season is still airing on DC Universe, but I'm not sure if they filmed it all before it started airing or if they're still filming as it goes, like they do on regular TV shows.

There was a spoiler picture linked in the Titans thread the other day which would suggest it's still filming.

It also films in Ontario,
I know :)

I did a tour of the old Kingston Penitentiary a few weeks back and they mentioned that an episode of Titans filmed in the exercise yard.
 
I apologize for setting you off and making feel like you were being attacked. That wasn't my intention at all. I was simply pointing out there was no rule to break when the "they're breaking there own rules" type comments were made.

I see the problem now: I was defining "rule" differently from some other people in this thread, and that created confusion. When I said they were changing the rule, I didn't mean "rule" in the sense of the first dictionary definition, "a principle or regulation governing conduct, action, procedure, arrangement, etc.," but in the third sense, "the customary or normal circumstance, occurrence, manner, practice, quality, etc." (like "As a rule, this tends to be the case"). So not an inviolable, permanent restriction, but merely a consistent pattern.


I understand that since they've mainly used the "identical counterpart" trope for the few Earths we've seen some would assume they're all like that and be a little annoyed when they suddenly go the non-trope route. Thing is there's never been anything stated that makes non-trope counterparts impossible and since this is an "everything including the kitchen sink" event there should be no surprise there going to have them.

It's not about possible/impossible, or about being annoyed by the mere fact of change. Those would be silly reasons to object. But as I said, it's conceptually sloppier and thus less desirable. It's relatively easy (as long as you ignore the technical problems with the idea discussed earlier) to buy the conceit that, say, Laurel Lance was born at the same time in two different universes and her life turned out very differently on Earth-2 because her father died early there. It's more of a reach to accept that multiple different iterations of Krypton explode decades apart yet always at the exact moment that a version of Jor-El is testing a prototype rocket, and that there always happens to be a Ma and Pa Kent, Lois Lane, Jimmy Olsen, etc. existing on Earth in perfect sync.
 
Watched Titans vs Titans Go last night.

They had their own Crisis.

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Mann...this is looking like that William SHatner SNL skit...

It's not a big deal to me... I figure they did the same actor/different universe type of thing at first because it was 1) cheaper and 2) easier to coordinate with regular actors, and know how to do things differently and the same, and make it work.

Also, at first, they seemed content with just honoring previosu DC incarnations by having them as guest stars in a different capacity (such as John Wesley Schipp as Barry's dad, or Helen SLater at SUpergirl's adoptive mom. And that stuff was a hit, since DC TV show great respect for what came before.

Now, there was Supergirl being in a different universe... partially, in my own thinking, is because they were trying to make SUpergirl a success on CBS, and kinda needed a fresh slate. But when CBS didn't work out (even with a mid season crossover), they still incorporated it into a multiverse.

Black Lightning, I maintain, was held off because I believe the Akils really wanted to maintain creative control of Black Lightning, and didn't want any of those characters as glorified extras in a crossover, or otherwise mishandled. We will see how Crisis pans out..but I think they have set up the series to fit in either pre or post crisis...and have been real coy on what is and isn't established.

Now that they have made Crisis the DC TV equivalent of ENDGAME, they have pulled out all the stops, and I am grateful for whatever they are able to add to it.

As for in-universe...I mean, no characters really knew much about the multiverse prior to season 2 of Flash...so I just believe they were going on "rules"they observed, but learned more and more as time went on.

Production - wise, they don't mind glossing over things if they work...so like Wally West becoming a part of the family such that in later episodes it felt like he had been a part of it his whole life, rather than a few months. AAnd that was cool with me, as the character dynamics worked well.

As for Harrison Wells and all his dopplegangers...to me, that is all an excuse to keep TOm Canaugh in the cast, and to give him more than just a grumpy scientist to portray...and give him some comic relief roles, which I feel likehe has a lot of fun doing.

I am used to DC Earth 1, 2, 3 where not everything has an exact duplicate, though a lot of parallels... I am still hoping for a Comics Earth 3 with a Crime Syndicate (which it seemed like for a while where they were going with Flash TV Earth 2)
 
I'm not sure if they're still filming. The season is still airing on DC Universe, but I'm not sure if they filmed it all before it started airing or if they're still filming as it goes, like they do on regular TV shows.
It also films in Ontario, but Black Lightning films in Atlanta and they'll have cast members in Crisis. I believe Supergirl was also still filming in LA when they did their first crossover.
Nope - the only Supergirl "crossover" in S1 was one episode with Grant Gustin/Barry Allen teaming up for one Villain. The "Crossover Events" started whith SG S2, by which time all four (IE Legends S1 was now going) were filming in Canada.
 
Nope - the only Supergirl "crossover" in S1 was one episode with Grant Gustin/Barry Allen teaming up for one Villain.

That's obviously what JD meant. He wasn't talking about "events," but about whether it's logistically feasible to bring in an actor whose show is filming in a different city. Supergirl flew Grant Gustin down to LA to shoot "Worlds Finest" (which absolutely was a crossover by the accepted definition of the word), and now they're bringing Cress Williams in from Atlanta for CoIE, so JD's point is that Titans being filmed in Toronto wouldn't preclude bringing one or more of their cast over to Vancouver.
 
As for Harrison Wells and all his dopplegangers...to me, that is all an excuse to keep TOm Canaugh in the cast, and to give him more than just a grumpy scientist to portray...and give him some comic relief roles, which I feel likehe has a lot of fun doing.
I wonder when they decided to do a different version of Wells every season? Both the writers and Tom Cavanagh seem to having a lot of fun coming up with all the different versions.
That's obviously what JD meant. He wasn't talking about "events," but about whether it's logistically feasible to bring in an actor whose show is filming in a different city. Supergirl flew Grant Gustin down to LA to shoot "Worlds Finest" (which absolutely was a crossover by the accepted definition of the word), and now they're bringing Cress Williams in from Atlanta for CoIE, so JD's point is that Titans being filmed in Toronto wouldn't preclude bringing one or more of their cast over to Vancouver.
Yeah, that was all I meant. I was a bit surprised to see that they're apparently bringing in multiple cast members from Black Lighting, for that reason. Last time we got a cross continental crossover like that, it was just one cast member.
 
Yeah, that was all I meant. I was a bit surprised to see that they're apparently bringing in multiple cast members from Black Lighting, for that reason. Last time we got a cross continental crossover like that, it was just one cast member.

Well, that was a difficult crossover to arrange because of the separate networks, and the uncertainty in their ability to arrange it may have meant they weren't able to shift more than one actor's schedule to accommodate it. This is a massive network-wide crossover that's been in the planning stages for at least a year.
 
I wonder when they decided to do a different version of Wells every season? Both the writers and Tom Cavanagh seem to having a lot of fun coming up with all the different versions.

Assuming that wasn't the plan from the beginning, it was probably done after the first or during the second season when they realized how great Cavanagh worked with the rest of the cast.
 
Holy crap, I hope that happens. So I wonder if they'll go for anybody from the Superboy TV series?
 
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