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Spoilers DSC: The Enterprise War by John Jackson Miller Review Thread

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The Lurians are of course Morn's people. And the story does get better, "WebLurker"; I think you're experiencing what I described a few days ago as like
. . . . .reading two separate books. The first didn't feel like Star Trek at all . . . and was as slow a read as The Handmaid's Tale was, and yet the second one felt very profoundly like Star Trek (and went very fast. . .).

And FWIW, Kursley (referred to in the litany of Enterprise chief engineers; anybody else see a parallel with TNG before Geordi became chief engineer?) is from the prologue of Star Trek Log Seven, ADF's full novelization of "The Counter-Clock Incident."
 
They'll need a sequel when the next Short Treks appears, showing Ensign Spock beaming onto the pre-"Cage" but still clearly Discovery-style USS Enterprise:lol:

Yeah, maybe we could squeeze another refit in, but, at that point, I'm just thinking we're just going to have to chalk it up as another continuity error that has no "in-universe" explanation. It's happens in long-running franchises, and won't be the first time it's happened in Star Trek.

I think it's more just homage, acknowledging the Pike-era stories that have come before him. Since those stories contradicted the heck out of each other anyway, it's not about continuity or worldbuilding, just tribute.

Same difference? (Heck, Star Wars borrows world building and other stuff from it's non-canon materials all the time.) In any event, I'm just going off of memory of the interview; all I know for sure is that Miller re-used the characters on purpose; we'd need to listen to the podcast or message him to confirm what his ideas were.
 
Yeah, maybe we could squeeze another refit in, but, at that point, I'm just thinking we're just going to have to chalk it up as another continuity error that has no "in-universe" explanation. It's happens in long-running franchises, and won't be the first time it's happened in Star Trek.

It's not an "error" any more than it's an error for two different actors to play the same character, or two different comic book artists to render a character's face differently, or two bands to do different arrangements of a song. This is not a documentary, it's a work of creativity. The Enterprise is a creation of the human imagination, something that exists in our minds and hearts. And that means different humans get to imagine it in their own ways.
 
It's not an "error" any more than it's an error for two different actors to play the same character, or two different comic book artists to render a character's face differently, or two bands to do different arrangements of a song. This is not a documentary, it's a work of creativity. The Enterprise is a creation of the human imagination, something that exists in our minds and hearts. And that means different humans get to imagine it in their own ways.
It becomes an error when writers try to explain these changes as in-universe refits and then the show immediately invalidates that explanation, as is happening here.

It would have been better left to the imagination, IMHO.
 
It becomes an error when writers try to explain these changes as in-universe refits and then the show immediately invalidates that explanation, as is happening here.

No, it's just a difference in interpretation. And it's easily reconciled. If it just says "a refit," it could be anything. It might be meant to suggest a potential explanation for the difference between the depicted vessels onscreen, but if it doesn't go into exacting detail about the changes, you're not required to interpret it that way. Like many things in fiction, it can be multivalued. That's a function of the readers' imagination and discretion.
 
No, it's just a difference in interpretation. And it's easily reconciled. If it just says "a refit," it could be anything. It might be meant to suggest a potential explanation for the difference between the depicted vessels onscreen, but if it doesn't go into exacting detail about the changes, you're not required to interpret it that way. Like many things in fiction, it can be multivalued. That's a function of the readers' imagination and discretion.
Each to their own, but I'm not a big fan of ignoring the author's intent.
 
Each to their own, but I'm not a big fan of ignoring the author's intent.

There aren't that many Trek books -- or even episodes -- that can be fit together without being flexible about at least a few details. Heck, there are a few sentences in my older novels that have been contradicted by later canon -- and as the author, I say just gloss over them and move on, and the hell with what I intended at the time. The "intent" is to produce the best possible story at that given time. When writing tie-ins to an ongoing series -- or, heck, just when writing science fiction when real science continues to advance -- you can't avoid the reality that eventually some things that you wrote won't be valid anymore, and the intent from the past has to give way to the reality of the present. Hey, you're lucky if all you have to change are a few niggly details, the odd sentence here and there. That's no big deal.
 
In the early Humanx Commonwealth novels, ADF spells the material forming the exoskeletons of the insectoid Thranx "chiton." Even though I've never found a dictionary entry anywhere, in which that spelling refers to the natural material forming the exoskeletons of arthropods or the cell walls of mushrooms (rather, it refers to either a type of tunic, or to a type of mollusk). In the most recent HC novels, he uses the spelling "chitin." He also contradicted himself on the matter of whether it's possible for a KK-drive ship to make planetfall.

In The Wonderful Wizard of Oz, Baum referred to Glinda as "The Good Witch of the South." In later books, wherein she made frequent appearances, he bowed to pressure from those who considered "good witch" to be an oxymoron (and acknowledged doing so in an introduction), and called her a "sorceress." (He also pretty much ignored the Good Witch of the North after her brief appearance in that book; he gave her the name "Locasta" in a stage play he wrote, and Ruth Plumly Thompson named her "Tattypoo," but those are inherently apocryphal sources.) And there are numerous places where the 14 canonical Oz novels contradict each other.

And I'm pretty sure that in Doyle's Sherlock Holmes canon (so far as I'm aware, the very first non-scriptural literary body to be referred to as a "canon"), there are numerous contradictions to be found.
 
Hell, look no further than screen Trek for contradictions - Spock had no familiarity with practical cloaking devices in Balance of Terror, but the Suliban has them in Enterprise. The Emperor’s New Cloak hinged on cloaking technology not existing in the Mirror Universe, but Through The Looking Glass had several Alliance ships decloak. The Federation-Cardassian conflicts happened through the early TNG seasons, but we have several declarations of “The Federation hasn’t been at war in decades” and “Starfleet is not a military!” in that same time.

“Canon” and “continuity” are ultimately no more than the commonly accepted collection of things, things which can, as dictated by story needs, be acknowledged or discarded. Trying to fit everything in a continuous line isn’t just impossible, it’s often even missing the forests for the trees, because there are some very good Star Trek stories, in print and onscreen, that can’t be reconciled perfectly with everything.

We all just smooth things over as best we can in our minds. That’s how this goes.
 
Each to their own, but I'm not a big fan of ignoring the author's intent.
Buddy, this is going to be a long period of extremely loose cross-media coordination, in that case.

The Enterprise War itself contradicts the intent of season two in order to un-contradict Desperate Hours. It's reminding me a bit of Agents of SHIELD and the Marvel movies, in the sense that there's still mostly a one-way flow of information like we're used to with tie-ins, but there's now a nominal degree of communication, so the tie-ins are keeping up with what they're doing while also incorporating whatever surprises fall on them from the parent property, ideally without being completely wrecked (jury's still out on if AOS is going to actually manage that, we'll see if the final season pulls a rabbit out of its hat).

Ironically, it makes all feel less unified than we're used to, since bombshells that altered the novelverse became rare to logically impossible fairly quickly after the novelverse became a major thing. Books could not just be reliably consistent with other books and the parent series, they could be consistent to an occasionally shocking degree of detail with either, which isn't going to happen with the new shows the way things are going; Last Best Hope can't be as tight with Picard as, say, The Good That Men Do was with "These Are the Voyages" or, if I may be allowed to once again get back upon my bullshit, the way the Babylon 5 comics (almost) revealed Talia's secret the same week the show did, or the way Dr. Halsey's Journal fit perfectly with the game Halo: Reach it was written as a tie-in for, while also beginning the intricate process of pretzeling the game's continuity together with the very different version of events told in the novel The Fall of Reach.
 
And I'm pretty sure that in Doyle's Sherlock Holmes canon (so far as I'm aware, the very first non-scriptural literary body to be referred to as a "canon"), there are numerous contradictions to be found.

The Holmes canon is replete with contradictions. Doctor John Watson's wife calls him James in one story for example.
 
Hell, look no further than screen Trek for contradictions - Spock had no familiarity with practical cloaking devices in Balance of Terror, but the Suliban has them in Enterprise. The Emperor’s New Cloak hinged on cloaking technology not existing in the Mirror Universe, but Through The Looking Glass had several Alliance ships decloak.

Oh, those are easy to explain, because realistically, there would be an ongoing arms race between stealth and detection. Any given cloaking technology would become useless as soon as a way to penetrate it was discovered -- and we saw the various crews discover ways to detect cloaked ships several times, e.g. by the thruster exhaust in TUC or by tachyon emissions in DS9. So there wouldn't be just one cloaking system, there'd be a succession of different cloaking systems. Once the existing system was penetrated, it would be rendered obsolete, and cloaking would again be purely hypothetical until someone invented a new, superior kind of cloak.

Of course, the real explanation is inconsistency in the writing, but it's fortunate that this happens to be an inconsistency that makes perfect logical sense in-universe, because it would not make sense for a single stealth technology to remain in use for over 200 years despite being penetrated on various different occasions. It also accounts for the differences between the various portrayals of cloaking -- the "Balance of Terror" version was detectable by "motion sensors" (whatever those were), the TSFS version had that telltale ripple that others didn't, etc.


The Federation-Cardassian conflicts happened through the early TNG seasons, but we have several declarations of “The Federation hasn’t been at war in decades” and “Starfleet is not a military!” in that same time.

I'd phrase that the other way around -- TNG's creators started off depicting a Federation at peace, then a few years later, "The Wounded" retconned in a war during that same period.


“Canon” and “continuity” are ultimately no more than the commonly accepted collection of things, things which can, as dictated by story needs, be acknowledged or discarded. Trying to fit everything in a continuous line isn’t just impossible, it’s often even missing the forests for the trees, because there are some very good Star Trek stories, in print and onscreen, that can’t be reconciled perfectly with everything.

"Canon" just means a collection of stories. Stories are human inventions and thus imperfect and changeable, so canons are imperfect and changeable too. Continuity is a device used by stories, not the sole overarching priority of stories. It's something you use when it helps you tell the stories you want, but that can be deferred when it interferes with telling the story. Ultimately, all fiction is just pretending and creating illusions. The illusion of a continuous reality is certainly useful, but sometimes you just have to pretend that something previously portrayed as X was actually Y all along, and ask the audience to pretend along with you for the sake of enjoying the story.


Ironically, it makes all feel less unified than we're used to, since bombshells that altered the novelverse became rare to logically impossible fairly quickly after the novelverse became a major thing.

Before, really. The only reason it was feasible for Pocket to attempt an ongoing 24th-century continuity in the first place was because the 24th-century shows weren't being made anymore. The DS9 Relaunch began the year after DS9 ended, the VGR and TNG post-finale books waited until after those series' finales, etc. No real ongoing novel continuity was feasible until the TV/movie continuities had ended and there was nothing onscreen to contradict the books.

Books that come out during a series are always a different animal. They're trying to keep up with a moving target. The series itself will be reinvented on the fly as the creators change their minds or new creators replace them with different ideas, so it's always going to be a struggle for any tie-ins to stay consistent with that.
 
Hell, look no further than screen Trek for contradictions - Spock had no familiarity with practical cloaking devices in Balance of Terror, but the Suliban has them in Enterprise.

Of course, the real explanation is inconsistency in the writing, but it's fortunate that this happens to be an inconsistency that makes perfect logical sense in-universe, because it would not make sense for a single stealth technology to remain in use for over 200 years despite being penetrated on various different occasions.

I recently watched "The Enterprise Incident" and their too Spock mentions the cloaking device in such a way you would almost thing he'd never seen it before, when we know in "Balance of Terror" they encountered it. I think in that case it was just a bit of clumsy dialogue writing. It seems strange TEI is consistent with BOT in many other ways (Romulan uniforms, Neutral Zone, etc.) and not account for the cloaking device which was a huge part of BOT as well.

I interpreted his line to mean a new type of cloaking device. He does say it renders their tracking systems obsolete. In BOT we know the Enterprise was able to track it's movements so I figured this new device 'fixed' that flaw in the system and Spock was simply talking about an updated cloaking system.

Now Enterprise did show the Suliban had stealth technology. However just because the Suliban had cloaking technology did not necessarily mean they wouldn't treat the Romulans having it as a 'new' thing. On the other hand they did observe the Romulan ship cloaking on Enterprise in the episode where they encountered them for the first time in the minefield. That's a bit harder to explain away since Spock seemed to not realize the Romulans had a cloaking device in BOT. It's possible since that is Starfleet's first encounter with Romulans since the Romulan War 100 years earlier that perhaps it was forgotten. But it's a bit of a bigger plot hole and Spock usually doesn't miss those kinds of details.

“Canon” and “continuity” are ultimately no more than the commonly accepted collection of things, things which can, as dictated by story needs, be acknowledged or discarded. Trying to fit everything in a continuous line isn’t just impossible, it’s often even missing the forests for the trees, because there are some very good Star Trek stories, in print and onscreen, that can’t be reconciled perfectly with everything.

I'm admittedly more of a continuity junkie. It's one reason I've loved the relaunch stories and one of the things I love about the novels is when they try to tie things together that otherwise don't really fit all that well. However, fans do sometimes tie canon and continuity together when they are really two different things. As a novel reader, esp. when it comes to the relaunches, I've generally included events in novels as part of the continuity I follow. For instance, since the Borg are gone in the novelverse now, I treat them as no longer a threat in the Star Trek universe. That's not canon. And I suspect the new Picard show is pretty much going to upend most of the novelverse continuity (I guess I'll have to treat it as an alternate/parallel universe at that point). But then that would be the new canon.

While I don't sweat the little things when it comes to continuity, I personally would prefer a sort of overall consistency in the Star Trek continuity (and with production design). But I don't get to make those calls so I just have to take it as it comes. The most I could really do if it really annoyed me is stop watching, but that's really not going to make a difference so at the end of the day I just accept what is and hope for a good show. We already have seen some attempts in the Discovery novels to tie some of it together, which I always welcome.
 
I recently watched "The Enterprise Incident" and their too Spock mentions the cloaking device in such a way you would almost thing he'd never seen it before, when we know in "Balance of Terror" they encountered it. I think in that case it was just a bit of clumsy dialogue writing. It seems strange TEI is consistent with BOT in many other ways (Romulan uniforms, Neutral Zone, etc.) and not account for the cloaking device which was a huge part of BOT as well.

Well, no -- of course, the whole plot of "The Enterprise Incident" depends on Starfleet knowing about the cloaking device beforehand, since Kirk and Spock are on a secret mission to steal it.

I interpreted his line to mean a new type of cloaking device. He does say it renders their tracking systems obsolete. In BOT we know the Enterprise was able to track it's movements so I figured this new device 'fixed' that flaw in the system and Spock was simply talking about an updated cloaking system.

That's probably exactly what the writers intended all along. They didn't forget "Balance," they directly referenced it in that very line.
 
Well, no -- of course, the whole plot of "The Enterprise Incident" depends on Starfleet knowing about the cloaking device beforehand, since Kirk and Spock are on a secret mission to steal it.



That's probably exactly what the writers intended all along. They didn't forget "Balance," they directly referenced it in that very line.

The way the line was written seemed to indicate they were unaware of the cloaking device. I don't recall the exact wording but if I recall correctly when Kirk says to Spock that he (Spock) has a theory as to why they didn't detect the Romulans until they were on top of them Spock says that he believes they have developed a cloaking technology that renders their tracking system obsolete. The way he says it can make it seem that they didn't know the Romulans had a cloaking device. Everyone acts completely shocked that the Romulans appeared out of nowhere, when they've seen them do at least that much before in BOT.

And it's a bit clumsy too because if Kirk and Spock's mission was to obtain the cloaking device, why would they be so surprised about it in the first place? They seem to talk about it as if they had never heard of it before.
 
The way the line was written seemed to indicate they were unaware of the cloaking device.

Again: They were sent on a secret mission to steal the cloaking device. Of course they were supposed to be aware of it.


I don't recall the exact wording but if I recall correctly when Kirk says to Spock that he (Spock) has a theory as to why they didn't detect the Romulans until they were on top of them Spock says that he believes they have developed a cloaking technology that renders their tracking system obsolete.

Yes, but... "tracking system." If Spock were only referring to the cloak per se, he would've said something like "that renders their vessels invisible to sensors." The fact that he limits it to a "tracking system" that's been rendered "obsolete" makes it pretty explicit that he's referring specifically to the motion sensors that let them track cloaked ships before but not now. It's confusing that you acknowledge that interpretation while simultaneously claiming it's not right there in the episode.

The way he says it can make it seem that they didn't know the Romulans had a cloaking device.

Of course it can seem that way, because '60s TV was written so that each episode could stand on its own. But here's the thing -- a good writer can make a line work in two different ways depending on the viewer's perspective and foreknowledge. It can seem to have one meaning within the episode itself yet convey a different meaning to people who get the external reference. So the line works both ways -- as standalone exposition about the cloaking device for the benefit of new viewers, and as an acknowledgment of BOT for the sake of continuity. It's actually quite deft.


Everyone acts completely shocked that the Romulans appeared out of nowhere, when they've seen them do at least that much before in BOT.

Sure, because they're surprised they didn't pick the ships up on motion sensors before they decloaked.


And it's a bit clumsy too because if Kirk and Spock's mission was to obtain the cloaking device, why would they be so surprised about it in the first place? They seem to talk about it as if they had never heard of it before.

Secret mission. The rest of the crew isn't supposed to know about it, so they're pretending.
 
Secret mission. The rest of the crew isn't supposed to know about it, so they're pretending.

Yes, but it still seems kind of dopey. On the bridge, before he is interrupted by the hail from the Romulan ships Spock begins to say something. Then in the briefing room Kirks says to him "You have a theory about why our sensors didn't pick up the Romulan ships?" (as best as I can recall) and then Spock tells him he believes the Romulans have developed a cloaking device....etc. They're didn't appear to be any wink/nods going on. It was as if they weren't aware of this ability at all before then. It seems kind of odd they would go over the top like that? I'm having a hard time expressing my point here in writing...but what I'm trying to say is why say that at all. Spock could have simply said I'll have to analyze my readings further or something to that effect. Why bring up the cloaking device they are supposed to steal at all? If you want to throw everyone off the scent of what the plan was, why would you bring up the very thing you hope to steal in the first place? I don't think I would want to talk about the device in front of the others. I would think you'd want to keep it vague as long as possible.

And I generally agree with most of your points. In continuity it makes sense. It just seemed the wording of the dialogue made it seem like they were unaware of the Romulans having a cloaking device at all. But I interpreted it to mean just as you have said, that it was a different style of cloak. It's a nitpick I've seen about TEI before...that they all seemed surprised the Romulans had a cloaking device. You would think being aware they had it that they would continue to improve it. The cloaking device in BOT had a flaw that the ship could still be tracked and the Romulans fixed that flaw. It shouldn't really have been as much of a surprise to the crew as they made it seemed IMO. That's all I'm saying.
 
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