The positive Voyager thread: What was good with the series?

[Guy Gardener]

Janeway went 4 years thinking that her fiance was back on Earth waiting for her, in disbelief that she dead. Mark was not in disbelief that she was dead and he did not wait.

Mourning + friendship + courtship + engagement + marriage + married so long that you don't dump your new wife becuase your dead fiance is alive again = 4 years?

This time line is fishy.

(pick one)

1. Mark is a catch, and several women were circling around him, waiting for Janeway to magically somehow fall out of the picture, until she did fall magically out of the picture.

2. Mark is in love with the idea of being married and it doesn't matter who his wife is.

3. Arranged marriages. Mark looked through a mail order catalog and rescued a cat lady. One of Jerry's novel's said that Mark had been friendzoned as a child by teen Janeway, but he got hot when they grew up, and Kathryn re-accessed how she wanted to spend her spare time with Mark. But even today there are dating websites just for people who want to get married, and there is almost no shame in it, so in 300 years, when you have a job that controls your life, it's possibly the only way to find a quality mate, by delegating all the arduous legwork to an AI.

4. Mark is a polygamist. He may have been engaged and married with children to 10 women. If all his wives were Star Fleet Captains who were only in port (Earth) a few days a year, then maybe he did need 10 wives?

5. Mark went through the appropriate respectful motions, and then knocked up a girl, had to marry her, and had to stay for the child, despite how Janeway coming back from the dead made him so happy.

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Mourning + friendship + courtship + engagement + marriage + married so long that you don't dump your new wife becuase your dead fiance is alive again = 4 years?

It happens. Not being married, there was a lower level of attachment and commitment. Janeway was career minded, and Mark may have been as well. Mark didn't make Janeway's decision, wherein she limited her personal relationships in order to provide a specific example of leadership to the crew. And according to Roddenberry, there's no crying in the future.

 

[Prax]

It happens. Not being married, there was a lower level of attachment and commitment. Janeway was career minded, and Mark may have been as well. Mark didn't make Janeway's decision, wherein she limited her personal relationships in order to provide a specific example of leadership to the crew. And according to Roddenberry, there's no crying in the future.

Unless you're in the penalty box

 

[Bad Thoughts]

Unless you're in the penalty box

Poor Tasha.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Is it me you refer to as the "Kes idiot"? I noted the comment and will remember it. I don't like personal insults.

I'm not sure if you truly believe this stuff or are just trolling. I'm going to ponder that for a bit. But you can tone down the crass sexual innuendo.
Edit: I pondered and truly don't think these comments towards and about women have a place in this forum. Saying we're only talking about a fictional character in Seven isn't going to fly. Infraction issued for trolling.


Thank you for using the multi-quote. However you also get an infraction for Flaming other members.

You both seem to enjoy needling each other and it's derailing threads. Enough.

I've enjoyed none of this. I don't understand why such hatred and vitriol is tolerated. I mean, it's one thing to say that you didn't like an episode because, or don't like a character because, in a constructive manner, but if you really read some of these comments... How can these posts in this forum be considered remotely enjoyable for fans of the show?

"Bitch, fool, stupid fool, bungling fool". "Seven. Tits, suit, tits, suit, tits suit." "Kes, Seven, Sex. Kes, Seven, Sex." "The actors couldn't act". "The writers couldn't write". Brannon Braga is a fool. Jeri Taylor is a fool.

How is any of this enjoyable? You're sucked into the same shit every time, by the same handful of people, who do a real good job fishing for the problems.

I loved ST:TNG when it came out. I watched each episode 50 times. Some episodes were better than others, some actors were better than others, but I never knew I was supposed to hate the first season, and be filled with hate and Vitriol for Wesley Crusher, until I tried to enjoy the show in internet forums.

 

[fireproof78]

Some episodes were better than others, some actors were better than others, but I never knew I was supposed to hate the first season, and be filled with hate and Vitriol for Wesley Crusher, until I tried to enjoy the show in internet forums.

Welcome to the Internet. And I like Wesley but TNG was not for me.

But, Kes has become the punching bag for VOY and it shows up time and again. I'm no fan of Seven for two reasons: one: because fans hyped her to the point of absurdity; two: she was constantly used as a measuring stick by which Kes could never measure up.

I am not the biggest VOY fan but it becomes tiresome to hear something knocked again and again. So, much like Wesley Crusher, I think Kes doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Welcome to the Internet. And I like Wesley but TNG was not for me.

But, Kes has become the punching bag for VOY and it shows up time and again. I'm no fan of Seven for two reasons: one: because fans hyped her to the point of absurdity; two: she was constantly used as a measuring stick by which Kes could never measure up.

I am not the biggest VOY fan but it becomes tiresome to hear something knocked again and again. So, much like Wesley Crusher, I think Kes doesn't deserve the hate she gets.

And I don't hate Kes! Sometimes the earlier episodes are better because of the different, less intense dynamic. It's the obsessive vitriol that inevitably gets people defensive and starts the shitting contests. Perhaps they should have kept the character on, in a smaller supporting role, instead of giving her the boot. But that boot is moot now.

What was it that you didn't like about TNG?

 

[Prax]

I like Kes quite a bit. I really liked her in "Cold Fire." I also liked her in Before & After, Darkling, the Gift, et al. I even liked her in Fury.

I personally don't care for the episodes Elogium and Warlord. They're some of the only episodes that I seem to always skip.

I would say she doesn't always carry an episode focused on her as well, or as easily as Jeri Ryan can do an episode focused on Seven, but in supporting roles, I have no preference of one over the other.

I liked Wesley watching TNG as a little kid, and still do. I don't get the hate for him at all. The stuff people complain about regarding Wesley is mostly confined to the early first season of TNG, when the whole cast is getting away with cringe inducing dialogue.

I don't see a lot of hate for Kes here at all. Maybe from one or two people.

 

[fireproof78]

And I don't hate Kes! Sometimes the earlier episodes are better because of the different, less intense dynamic. It's the obsessive vitriol that inevitably gets people defensive and starts the shitting contests. Perhaps they should have kept the character on, in a smaller supporting role, instead of giving her the boot. But that boot is moot now.

What was it that you didn't like about TNG?

The general attitude of the characters. They were people I could enjoy in small doses but not over long periods.

 

[jmidnight_99]

I like Kes quite a bit. I really liked her in "Cold Fire." I also liked her in Before & After, Darkling, the Gift, et al. I even liked her in Fury.

I personally don't care for the episodes Elogium and Warlord. They're some of the only episodes that I seem to always skip.

I would say she doesn't always carry an episode focused on her as well, or as easily as Jeri Ryan can do an episode focused on Seven, but in supporting roles, I have no preference of one over the other.

I don't see a lot of hate for Kes here at all. Maybe from one or two people.

I agree. I don't care for the episodes Elogium or Warlord either. I can tolerate Elogium once in a while, but Warlord is one of my least favorite episodes of the series. I'd add Fury to this list, too. I thought the episode made no sense, and irreparably damaged the character. Kes' future should have been to rejoin her people, reunite them, and free them by reawakening their abilities. This 'liberation' would have closed the chapter on the Ocampa properly, including Janeway's decision to come to their aid by destroying the Caretaker's station in the first place.

The general attitude of the characters. They were people I could enjoy in small doses but not over long periods.

I can see that.

 

[Lynx]

The most positive with the series was that it gave me the inspiration to create The Kes Website which some months ago celebrated its 20th anniversary.


What started as a simple photo page has developed into much more. A page which covers a lot of Voyager related items. Not only about Kes but other crewmembers as well, reviews, maps, a timeline, stories and the quite innovative page "Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them" where some odd things are brought up and explained.

Lack of time has caused fewer updates the recent year but it's still fun to come up with new ideas and creations for this website which I will continue to do from time to time.

Not too bad achievements from "a Kes idiot", is it?

 

[Prax]

I have a positive that I don't ever see mentioned. People always talk about how Janeway and Chakotay would have made a good pairing, and I agree, but since we couldn't have that, what we are left with is a very good friendship, maybe the closest since Spock and Kirk. They have their ups and downs, but they built a really strong bond. Riker is kind of a suck up first officer who seems to worship Picard. The TNG equivalent to Janeway and Chakotay might be Picard and Crusher, but Crusher was a little bit cold.

Sisko was a bit aloof towards his officers, all except Dax, and at times seems to not like them, or is annoyed by them. Kira(like Riker) also admires/almost worships Sisko, but they don't have the strongest reciprocative friendship.

Archer and T'Pol grow to have a close friendship, but again, T'Pol practically grows to worship Archer. I think it works pretty well for ENT, though.

Chakotay doesn't worship Janeway, and probably doesn't admire her as much after a few seasons, but is a devoted friend to her. This really pays off in some of the final season episodes

 

[jmidnight_99]

The most positive with the series was that it gave me the inspiration to create The Kes Website which some months ago celebrated its 20th anniversary.


What started as a simple photo page has developed into much more. A page which covers a lot of Voyager related items. Not only about Kes but other crewmembers as well, reviews, maps, a timeline, stories and the quite innovative page "Voyager mysteries-and how to solve them" where some odd things are brought up and explained.

Lack of time has caused fewer updates the recent year but it's still fun to come up with new ideas and creations for this website which I will continue to do from time to time.

Not too bad achievements from "a Kes idiot", is it?

The 'Kes' site is nice. The 'Kes' site with all the series bashing, writers bashing, Seven bashing, fan bashing, Harry bashing, creator bashing, and general vitriol, not so nice. I apologize for calling you "that Kes Idiot".

I have a positive that I don't ever see mentioned. People always talk about how Janeway and Chakotay would have made a good pairing, and I agree, but since we couldn't have that, what we are left with is a very good friendship, maybe the closest since Spock and Kirk. They have their ups and downs, but they built a really strong bond. Riker is kind of a suck up first officer who seems to worship Picard. The TNG equivalent to Janeway and Chakotay might be Picard and Crusher, but Crusher was a little bit cold.

Sisko was a bit aloof towards his officers, all except Dax, and at times seems to not like them, or is annoyed by them. Kira(like Riker) also admires/almost worships Sisko, but they don't have the strongest reciprocative friendship.

Archer and T'Pol grow to have a close friendship, but again, T'Pol practically grows to worship Archer. I think it works pretty well for ENT, though.

Chakotay doesn't worship Janeway, and probably doesn't admire her as much after a few seasons, but is a devoted friend to her. This really pays off in some of the final season episodes

Hmmmm. I think worship is too strong a word. Admire, respect, enjoy serving with or working for, yes... I've been in that situation, and that's what you feel for a strong commanding officer, and in a good work situation.

I enjoyed Chakotay's relationship with Janeway, and I'm glad nothing happened (that we know of) between them. He could stand up to her when he thought she was wrong, and follow her when she wasn't, or it wasn't his place to question, and I think they had a strong trust and friendship.

I also enjoy Janeway's relationship with Tuvok.

 

[Nightdiamond]

I have a positive that I don't ever see mentioned. People always talk about how Janeway and Chakotay would have made a good pairing, and I agree, but since we couldn't have that, what we are left with is a very good friendship, maybe the closest since Spock and Kirk. They have their ups and downs, but they built a really strong bond. Riker is kind of a suck up first officer who seems to worship Picard. The TNG equivalent to Janeway and Chakotay might be Picard and Crusher, but Crusher was a little bit cold.

Sisko was a bit aloof towards his officers, all except Dax, and at times seems to not like them, or is annoyed by them. Kira(like Riker) also admires/almost worships Sisko, but they don't have the strongest reciprocative friendship.

Archer and T'Pol grow to have a close friendship, but again, T'Pol practically grows to worship Archer. I think it works pretty well for ENT, though.

Chakotay doesn't worship Janeway, and probably doesn't admire her as much after a few seasons, but is a devoted friend to her. This really pays off in some of the final season episodes

Unlike the other shows, their relation grew closer over time, by the final season they were talking like old friends. He was her right hand man. Although I always thought they had that original dynamic with Janeway and Tuvok, there was always room for more.

I mentioned in another thread that Chakotay made a kind of sexual offer to Janeway when they were forced to live together on a planet because of a quarantine. I always felt that was kind of weird and it definitely established a sexual tension between them but after that the whole thing went away.

Another likeable thing is the episode when Janeway took some extra time to spend with some crew members that were sort of oddballs. She came off as approachable and caring about her crew.

It happens. Not being married, there was a lower level of attachment and commitment. Janeway was career minded, and Mark may have been as well. Mark didn't make Janeway's decision, wherein she limited her personal relationships in order to provide a specific example of leadership to the crew.

There was something a little strange going with Janeway too. That episode where they visited a planet of pleasure seeking people-- she seemed to be getting very close to their spokesman. Spending time alone, sharing meals, even some crew members were commenting on it.

This was like only a few episodes from when they got stranded in the DQ. I could be reading into things, but her body language mad it looked like she was charmed by him and for a brief moment, the show forgot she was engaged to someone back home --but I think I'm reading into it too much.

 

[Lynx]

The 'Kes' site is nice. The 'Kes' site with all the series bashing, writers bashing, Seven bashing, fan bashing, Harry bashing, creator bashing, and general vitriol, not so nice. I apologize for calling you "that Kes Idiot".

Apology accepted.

However, I must admit that I do find your comments about "bashing" very exaggerated, to say the least. Criticizm in some places, yes but not "bashing". As for the writers, I've actually givent hem some credit here and there as well, most recently at the 20th anniversary page if you happened to miss that.

And to be honest, there has been more "general vitriol" in your earlier posts in this thread than on the whole website.
"Harry bashing"? Maybe some mild criticizm how the character was developed but nothing more. I actually like Harry.

 

[jmidnight_99]

Apology accepted.

However, I must admit that I do find your comments about "bashing" very exaggerated, to say the least. Criticizm in some places, yes but not "bashing". As for the writers, I've actually givent hem some credit here and there as well, most recently at the 20th anniversary page if you happened to miss that.

And to be honest, there has been more "general vitriol" in your earlier posts in this thread than on the whole website.
"Harry bashing"? Maybe some mild criticizm how the character was developed but nothing more. I actually like Harry.

Yes, I have been dragged into it... and so haven't others. It's hard not be.

We can all enjoy the show from our own unique perspective. And that's the point isn't it? We're all going to see the show itself differently and the episodes differently. Some will like one part of it, while others watch the same thing and be ambivalent, or have the exact opposite feelings.

 

[STEPhon IT]

I loved Tuvok's presentation of strength and a code of conduct through out the series; I thought he was treated a lot better than Worf as Tactical Officer where in TNG he was used simply to make his co-stars and villains look better. Tuvok's insights on subject matters were never one dimensional, and his methods for investigations were methodical; unfortunately the stories involving his methods were not interesting but I appreciated what actor Tim Russ displayed when on screen. I liked most of his individual episodes and I liked the one where his mind was wiped out and he explored other skills like cooking. I loved the comeback line when one his comrades asked why he cook sweets, his answer, "Because it tastes good!"

 

[Lynx]

Yes, I have been dragged into it... and so haven't others. It's hard not be.

We can all enjoy the show from our own unique perspective. And that's the point isn't it? We're all going to see the show itself differently and the episodes differently. Some will like one part of it, while others watch the same thing and be ambivalent, or have the exact opposite feelings.

Here I totally agree with you!

 

[Voth commando1]

Voyager always had heart, and it remained true to the Trekkian ethos and spirit.

Its got many stand out episodes, like Living Witness, Scorpion, Projections, Author Author, Timeless, Year of Hell, among others. And good episodes like Counterpoint, Distant Origins, Sacred Ground, One, and Equinox.

I rewatch Voyager eps all the time.

 

[Tenacity]

Mark is a catch

That's why a admiral's. daughter arranged for daddy to send Janeway on what everyone (except Janeway) knew was a suicide mission.