CBS/Paramount sues to stop Axanar 2 - Electric Boogaloo-Fanboys gone WILD-too many hyphens

[dmac]

You seem to have created a straw man of me while simultaneously proving the straw man's point. Fascinating.

My point was never that you had to reply to my topics. The point was that the people who currently frequent this forum are openly hostile to new topics in general and those that would post them, and are unwilling to start any constructive topics of their own.

I think that's the most honest thing anyone's said in this forum in a long time. This actually explains a lot about the current mentality of the forum.

Really? Because I've mentioned several times that I was just giving the topic as an example, yet you keep bringing it up.

It's not about one topic, or even my preferred topics. It's about the complete lack of will in this forum to take part in any discussions about making fan films in the post-Axanar-lawsuit era.

It's everyone's fault. The people in this thread have generated thousands of messages since the Guidelines came out. If even a fraction of that effort had gone to furthering the purpose of this forum, we wouldn't be having this conversation.

Well, how about discussions on how to edit down the size of your script to fit either 15 or 30 minutes? Or perhaps a discussion of the type of three act structure commonly used in short films? Or discussions about how to reduce the cost of sets, costumes and props while still presenting a good-looking, convincing fan film? Or how to contact other people to share things like costumes and props? Or how to do low-budget virtual sets? Or even one of the other topics I mentioned previously in this thread? There's no shortage of ways to improve fan production and help new fan film makers.

If anyone had to be either of those things to have an opinion, the Internet would shrivel up and die.

However, writing poetry doesn't make you a good novelist by default either. Certainly, there's some overlap in the skill sets of poets and novelists, just as athletes in different sports may have similarities in their diets and training. However, a poet can only become a good novelist by practicing the art of writing novels, just as a basketball player can't become a good baseball player without a lot of practice at baseball. You can be both, but you have to put in the effort for both.

You're describing a Siege Mentailty. Some quick Googling yields the article "How to Break Free from a Siege Mentality". Here's an excerpt:

First off I know nothing about you but I do know that ten years ago before I had any experience in fan films or audio dramas I was also prone to ask or bring up some awfully outlandish topics. That much is excusable because after you've been involved in over 60 fan films, (credited or not) bit voice acting, writing, producing and audio dramas you're going to run into the same thing.
Get out there a film something, keep it simple and make your mistakes. Each project is only a foundation for the next one and soon you too will attract the attention of all those smarter than you, those who could have done it better yet never tried. It's just the way of things.
I'm considering becoming involved in the Atom Void project, These are people who have been involved in designing engine platforms for gaming and wish to branch off into role playing games. I feel as if I have a lot to bring to the project. The company's owners can review my past work. If they wish to continue creating role playing games with near zero story line It's not my call.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

It's funny, because I thought you actually wanted to talk about it.

Did you expect me to give examples of discussions I don't want to have?

It's not will, its interest.

That's a distinction without a practical difference when speaking in the aggregate. If the entire forum is on life support, does it matter if it was a lack of interest or will that caused it? Any why are my posts here so much more interesting than the actual subject of fan film?

Why don't you start those topics then? If you spent less time complaining about something not being done and actually DOING the thing, then maybe those threads would exist.

I'm working on a topic to post right now, whereas I don't think you've created a new thread in this fan film forum since I first started coming here. In all honesty, I suspect your demand for me to post new topics is more a rhetorical tactic than a good faith call to action.

If by "straw man," you mean describing your recent posts in this thread, sure.

I was describing an environment of group harassment of newcomers and general apathy about the actual forum topic that's basically strangling the forum to death. By oversimplifying that as "mean", you misrepresent the scale, complexity and nature of the issue.

As for your response...

So instead, you'd rather keep interjecting in this thread to tell everyone how mean they are and complain that we're not listening to you? Because that makes so much more sense.

This displays neither kindness nor a willingness to listen, demonstrating the very characteristics you said that I was accusing you of.

Yeah. I mean Maurice has been posting information on writing and film making here for years.

He's literally the only person anyone's brought up in response as an example people who post meaningful content to this forum. I agree that he is a valuable contributor to the forum, but are we to place the entire forum on his shoulders?

It's frustrating, yes, but you're the one here acting out this so-called siege mentality.

From Wikipedia:

Siege mentality is a shared feeling of victimization and defensiveness—a term derived from the actual experience of military defences of real sieges. It is a collective state of mind in which a group of people believe themselves constantly attacked, oppressed, or isolated in the face of the negative intentions of the rest of the world.
[...]
Among the consequences of a siege mentality are black and white thinking, social conformity, and lack of trust, but also a preparedness for the worst and a strong sense of social cohesion.

So, no, a "siege mentality" would not describe me, although I would admit to being a bit exhausted by the whole experience. I mean, I just got seven opposing responses to a single post. It's not my mentality, I'm actually being under siege.

 

[Professor Zoom]

*turns to face the audience*

Once more unto the breach, dear friends, once more...
Sigh.

Did you expect me to give examples of discussions I don't want to have?

Why are you ruthlessly pedantic?

That's a distinction without a practical difference when speaking in the aggregate. If the entire forum is on life support, does it matter if it was a lack of interest or will that caused it? Any why are my posts here so much more interesting than the actual subject of fan film?

To the first part, meh. I don't care you don't see the distinction. Maybe it doesn't mater. I don't know.
For the second part, you're right, why ARE your posts--which are totally off topic--more interesting than the actual topic of this thread....

I'll adjust my interest level accordingly.

I'm working on a topic to post right now, whereas I don't think you've created a new thread in this fan film forum since I first started coming here. In all honesty, I suspect your demand for me to post new topics is more a rhetorical tactic than a good faith call to action.

I haven't creating a new thread in the fan film forum because, as I have said over and over and over and over, I have no interest in producing a fan film. None. Zero. Zilch. I don't even like many fan films. As I have said over and over and over, I'm interested in this particular thread because of my interest in IP and copyright. Sometimes I get involved when the thread takes a turn from Axanar, sometimes I don't.

My demand for you to post new topics isn't a rhetorical tactic. It was literally, "Stop complaining and start doing." I don't understand someone who complains so much when the solution is right there... Do you need someone else to do it for you? As someone pointed out, there's a pinned thread at the top for writers of fan films. Like... how much do you need handed to you?

I'm glad you're working on a topic, though, I don't know why it takes so long, but, it's not my topic, just, for the love of all that is holy, post the threads that you're interested in and stop complaining that there aren't those threads.

And with that, good luck with your threads, good luck with your scripts, good luck with your films.... Ciao, auf wiedersehen, good bye.

 

[USS Intrepid]

This sub forum was created to allow people to talk about fanfilms, not specifically to teach people how to make them. Sure, it’s within the scope of discussion, but it’s not the reason it exists. There are far better venues for that if people want to make their own films. YouTube is a great source of information for example.

Yes, the Axanar kvetching dominates lately, I’ve said as much in the past. But it certainly doesn’t help when people repeatedly derail threads with the same complaints and (often erroneous) assertions. Asking the same question over and over again because you don’t like the answer isn’t going to magically produce the response you want. It’s just gonna get you added to everyone’s ignore list.

 

[Maurice]

This sub forum was created to allow people to talk about fanfilms, not specifically to teach people how to make them. Sure, it’s within the scope of discussion, but it’s not the reason it exists.

Quite agree. It's about all aspects of fan productions, not a how-to forum.

I started the "Primer" topics when there were a fair number of active fanfilm makers here in an attempt to create some threads where we could learn from one another, have discussions, or at least I where I could point people to resources. It's the same reason I did the "What Happened to Starship Exeter" post-mortem, not just to tell the story but demonstrate how that show got into post-production Hell as a way to maybe save others from the same misery.

And, just to toot my own horn, honestly, I don't think I've every seen anyone do as comprehensive discussion of the "Clapper"/Slate than I did here.

But I offer this stuff because I like being helpful, that's all. I've been told I should post that stuff to another site dedicated to filmMAKERS rather than here. And I've seriously considered doing that in my copious free time.

None of this relates to Axanar, albeit if he weren't banned til the end of time and actually was serious about making that damned film AP could stand to come in here and larn a thang or three.

 

[BeatleJWOL]

None of this relates to Axanar, albeit if he weren't banned til the end of time and actually was serious about making that damned film AP could stand to come in here and larn a thang or three.

Eh, he can still read. Making the choice to STFU and learn something for a change would do him a world of good.

It would also irrevocably cause hell to freeze over.

That said, the problem all along is that Peters isn't a filmmaker, he's a producer (so to speak). He might not have needed a director, for instance, if he was.

 

[dmac]

That said, the problem all along is that Peters isn't a filmmaker, he's a producer (so to speak). He might not have needed a director, for instance, if he was.

That's giving Producers a bad name. He's a promoter!

 

[BeatleJWOL]

That's giving Producers a bad name. He's a promoter!

That's actually even more accurate. Good call.

Colonel Parker would be proud of some of Alec's shenanigans.

 

[Admiral2]

No, he wrote Red October in 1982, Patriot Games in 1979, and Without Remorse in 1971, or, at least, that's what he started each of them.

Would anyone care to cite sources for these assertions of when the books were written?

How's this for a source? The guy who wrote them. This is an interview he did with Charlie Rose to promote Executive Orders:

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They talk about Red October as if it's Clancy's first book. The most relevant exchange takes place five minutes in. This is what he says:

I just decided one fine day in, um...I guess it was in April or so of 1982 that I was gonna write one and finish it, and I did and that was Hunt for Red October and I got real lucky.

He didn't write Patriot Games until the success of Red October won him a three book deal. (go here, scroll down. Without Remorse was written to give John Clark backstory. Clark first appeared in Cardinal of The Kremlin, three books prior.

All I can think is that David cgc is conflating the times the stories were set in with the times they were created. This is not the case.

 

[Tuskin38]

They talk about Red October as if it's Clancy's first book. The most relevant exchange takes place five minutes in. This is what he says:

Red October was the one he finished a released first yes, but the other novels he started writing around the same time

The closest source I can find saying that Patriot Games was started around the same time as Red October is this New York Times article from 1988.
https://www.nytimes.com/1988/05/01/magazine/king-of-the-techno-thriller.html

By 1979 he was writing whenever he could make time. His fictions centered on a fellow Irish-American named Jack Ryan, a former Wall Street whiz who quit to teach naval history at Annapolis. A lithe ex-Marine, Ryan moonlighted for the C.I.A. At first, Clancy toyed with three novels. In one, Ryan saved members of the British Royal family from terrorists, only to become the terrorists' target himself. Another plot involved Ryan with a high-level spy in the Kremlin. Yet a third plot centered on a Soviet submarine commander's defection to the United States.

This post also gives more sources
https://www.trekbbs.com/threads/cbs...oo-many-hyphens.294122/page-197#post-13065986

This Clancy obit Says Patriot Games was started in 1979; so does this obit.

And this article from 1993 says Without Remorse was started in 1971.

 

[Matthew Raymond]

Why are you ruthlessly pedantic?

This has nothing to do with pedantry. My intent was always to encourage people to channel their energies into more constructive posts, and I intend to lead by example, but I don't owe you a thread on whatever topic you personally dictate.

There are far better venues for that if people want to make their own films. YouTube is a great source of information for example.

It is a good source for information, but it's one that people already know about, and you can't really have a serious conversation there. If you wanted to talk about a particular YouTube video, you'd probably be better off finding a good subreddit on Reddit, posting the video there, and asking some questions about it. There are plenty of subreddits on writing, film making and science fiction.

 

[Professor Zoom]

This has nothing to do with pedantry. My intent was always to encourage people to channel their energies into more constructive posts, and I intend to lead by example, but I don't owe you a thread on whatever topic you personally dictate.

Pass.

 

[ozzfloyd]

"You guys aren't discussing the things I want!"

"So go start a thread on that."

"Don't tell me what to do!"

 

[Professor Zoom]

"You guys aren't discussing the things I want!"

"So go start a thread on that."

"Don't tell me what to do!"

I wish I could give this post more than one like.

 

[Firebird]

but I don't owe you a thread on whatever topic you personally dictate.

But you feel we owe you a thread on what you're dictating we should discuss. Do you even read your own posts?

Because I have no faith in the posters of this forum to pick up the topic once I've started it, that's why. You'd all rather create movie posters making fun of AP instead.

I've actually tried to get conversations going about how to properly create fan films in other threads, only to be either ignored or dog-piled there

 

[David cgc]

All I can think is that David cgc is conflating the times the stories were set in with the times they were created. This is not the case.

No, but since others picked up the torch so ably, I didn't feel the need to elaborate. I recalled that Clancy had written several books before actually getting one of them published, which I'd learned during my voracious Clancy-period in High School, doing research to figure out which book came when and other interesting behind-the-scenes trivia. I double-checked before posting on the Wikipedia entries for Without Remorse, Patriot Games, and Red October, all of which confirmed my recollection. Now, I know what you're going to say, and those claims were sourced to The Tom Clancy Companion, which wasn't excerpted on Google Books, and I didn't care enough about this discussion or Tom Clancy to go on a personal mission to track down a copy to formally quote and cite (unlike, say, that time I grabbed a used copy of the Reeves-Stevens Star Trek Phase II book in the hopes that it'd have a memo that was posted here once where Roddenberry proposes what TNG eventually named "synthohol" and discussed ways it could be reconciled with Scotty's obvious alcoholism; I didn't find it in the book. The most I've ever found was another post on TBBS mentioning it, so I know it didn't come to me in a dream or something).

 

[motorhead]

Matthew said some of us noobs are outright hostile regarding new projects. i'm guilty of that, it's what Axanar taught me. For example... what happened to this proposed, fan made star wars tv show pilot episode?
https://www.kickstarter.com/project...stiny-a-star-wars-long-tale-pilot-episo/posts
last update on KS was 7 months ago and i still think it's a bad idea. what if they all get slapped with a lawsuit? and for what, an appointment with Disney? also... can't a fan film be done in LESS than a decade? are these all multi generation projects? there won't be any tv anymore when most of these are done. And don't get me started on Interlude, I've been to italy a couple of weeks ago and boots arent that much cheaper there as far as i can tell.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

This isn't about Star Wars fan films.

 

[jespah]

Not per se, but we're definitely talking about overreaching here.

Memo to fans making, well, anything: don't call it a pilot. It's not a pilot, no matter how much you really, really want it to be.

 

[Maurice]

This isn't about Star Wars fan films.

No, but they are still fanfilms and prone to the same abuses.