Why Doctor Who is a MESS

[jaime]

Sure.

Your argument is that these things could not happen without people hearing about it.

Because we have heard about it, we are arguing about it.

Parse that for a sec.

Then your argument is that the BBC can’t keep secrets...but, in this era we keep learning how many secrets they have managed to keep for a long time. By definition, we won’t know about the other ones, because they are a secret.
Some of them don’t even matter. I know of one ‘rumour’ that could have terrible effect on a Who writers career, a Who writer with a massive career as a writer, and who possibly may not even know about themselves. It’s not even about Doctor Who, and goes back to literally their first break in their current career. They are good enough and well thought of enough that they could probably brush it off fine. So in many ways it’s not an important secret.
The reason I know about it is the reason I am inclined to believe it’s not a rumour, though I would prefer it to be untrue.
It’s still a secret, despite the people involved being very high profile these days...or perhaps because.
The BBC can keep secrets, especially when they are in danger of losing face.

If you don’t believe me, look at all the stuff in recent years around pay (which obviously isn’t a secret anymore, but shows the lengths they go to) or things like the top gear fracas (the exact circumstances around Clarkson at that time trickled out years later, the story having been carefully controlled at the time, and are still something you end up having to look for, rather than having been screamed from the rooftops of the media at the time. And that show was making more money than Who at that time I believe. For BBC Worldwide particularly. Which is now BBC Studios. Which makes it even easier to hide things.)

No organisation as old as the BBC doesn’t know where the femur filled cupboards are, and where to bury them.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Your argument is that these things could not happen without people hearing about it.

Because we have heard about it, we are arguing about it.

Parse that for a sec.

Then your argument is that the BBC can’t keep secrets...but, in this era we keep learning how many secrets they have managed to keep for a long time. By definition, we won’t know about the other ones, because they are a secret.
Some of them don’t even matter. I know of one ‘rumour’ that could have terrible effect on a Who writers career, a Who writer with a massive career as a writer, and who possibly may not even know about themselves. It’s not even about Doctor Who, and goes back to literally their first break in their current career. They are good enough and well thought of enough that they could probably brush it off fine. So in many ways it’s not an important secret.
The reason I know about it is the reason I am inclined to believe it’s not a rumour, though I would prefer it to be untrue.
It’s still a secret, despite the people involved being very high profile these days...or perhaps because.
The BBC can keep secrets, especially when they are in danger of losing face.

If you don’t believe me, look at all the stuff in recent years around pay (which obviously isn’t a secret anymore, but shows the lengths they go to) or things like the top gear fracas (the exact circumstances around Clarkson at that time trickled out years later, the story having been carefully controlled at the time, and are still something you end up having to look for, rather than having been screamed from the rooftops of the media at the time. And that show was making more money than Who at that time I believe. For BBC Worldwide particularly. Which is now BBC Studios. Which makes it even easier to hide things.)

No organisation as old as the BBC doesn’t know where the femur filled cupboards are, and where to bury them.

mm hm. Yep. I'm sure. It's not like Doctor Who is a big production with lots of people who have easy access to the internet...

 

[jaime]

mm hm. Yep. I'm sure. It's not like Doctor Who is a big production with lots of people who have easy access to the internet...

Yes. Or solicitors. Or contracts. Or power. Or people that like having a career.
Besides which...your argument is ‘if it were true, we would know about it’

Which we do. Which is why we are discussing it.

I mean I believe technically it’s not actually a BBC production anymore...they span BBC studios out of worldwide, and now that’s its sort of quasi-autonomous production arm. Though can’t remember if Who is under studios yet or not. Another shell in the game.

Now, some people would very much like the rumour to be true...which may be how it started (if false) but..that doesn’t seem to be the case. Much of it surfaced from people with no dog in that particular fight apparently. Some people desperately want it not to be true, and that’s fair enough. Again though, some of the people bringing out the limited info are people who really wouldn’t want it to be true (though some of it is murky and bandwagon jumping possibly. Probably.)

The problem is, the only thing close to an official debunking is the radio times (no longer owned by the Beeb) citing their own un-names source, with a carefully worded refutation. The smaller ones are a carefully worded email response to a fan enquiry which ends on an oddly uncertain note, and a post from Moffat (who is at least matey with Chibnall) that reads like it’s pooh poohing the rumours...whilst the words can *easily* be read to be somewhat enigmatically confirming them (‘I worked on that show for fourteen years, and in all that time how many rumours were true? Nil. Nada. - or something like that, I am typing from memory. Except of course there were plenty...both Doctors departures started as rumours a matter of months before becoming official, the castings May also have leaked ahead of their announcement, John Simms Return was a rumour/leak, various plot basics and production art leaked.... John Hurt surprised me, but I wasn’t paying attention anyway...McGanns Return was rumoured and ultimately true...so actually, in all his years almost bloody every rumour turned out to be true. Including a female doctor. Kris Marshall wasn’t true...though that brief face in the abortive regeneration did look..well..maybe he did a favour for the giggles of it.)

Is it true? Who knows.
If it is...it will be stage managed.
Only way we will know for sure it isn’t, is if chibbers and Jodie do a third season. Which at the current work rate and release rate will mean they will have done what..five years? But only three series.
The production is...as this thread says...a mess at the moment. And that makes it a bit easier to give these rumours more air than I usually would.

 

[Guy Gardener]

I saw Ingrid Oliver on The Hustle a few nights ago. They'd wrung every ounce of nerd completely out of her.

 

[jaime]

I saw Ingrid Oliver on The Hustle a few nights ago. They'd wrung every ounce of nerd completely out of her.

Shame. I quite like her.

 

[Professor Zoom]

Yes. Or solicitors. Or contracts. Or power. Or people that like having a career.
Besides which...your argument is ‘if it were true, we would know about it’

Which we do. Which is why we are discussing it.

I mean I believe technically it’s not actually a BBC production anymore...they span BBC studios out of worldwide, and now that’s its sort of quasi-autonomous production arm. Though can’t remember if Who is under studios yet or not. Another shell in the game.

Now, some people would very much like the rumour to be true...which may be how it started (if false) but..that doesn’t seem to be the case. Much of it surfaced from people with no dog in that particular fight apparently. Some people desperately want it not to be true, and that’s fair enough. Again though, some of the people bringing out the limited info are people who really wouldn’t want it to be true (though some of it is murky and bandwagon jumping possibly. Probably.)

The problem is, the only thing close to an official debunking is the radio times (no longer owned by the Beeb) citing their own un-names source, with a carefully worded refutation. The smaller ones are a carefully worded email response to a fan enquiry which ends on an oddly uncertain note, and a post from Moffat (who is at least matey with Chibnall) that reads like it’s pooh poohing the rumours...whilst the words can *easily* be read to be somewhat enigmatically confirming them (‘I worked on that show for fourteen years, and in all that time how many rumours were true? Nil. Nada. - or something like that, I am typing from memory. Except of course there were plenty...both Doctors departures started as rumours a matter of months before becoming official, the castings May also have leaked ahead of their announcement, John Simms Return was a rumour/leak, various plot basics and production art leaked.... John Hurt surprised me, but I wasn’t paying attention anyway...McGanns Return was rumoured and ultimately true...so actually, in all his years almost bloody every rumour turned out to be true. Including a female doctor. Kris Marshall wasn’t true...though that brief face in the abortive regeneration did look..well..maybe he did a favour for the giggles of it.)

Is it true? Who knows.
If it is...it will be stage managed.
Only way we will know for sure it isn’t, is if chibbers and Jodie do a third season. Which at the current work rate and release rate will mean they will have done what..five years? But only three series.
The production is...as this thread says...a mess at the moment. And that makes it a bit easier to give these rumours more air than I usually would.

Sure, sure. Or more simply: it’s wish fulfillment. And it’s not true.

 

[Guy Gardener]

Shame. I quite like her.

Dude, it's called acting.

Ingrid was playing a villainous corrupt Italian police chief femme fatale.

Admire her range.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Cosmicbooknews hey? The guys that seem to have issues with strong female leads.

 

[Guy Gardener]

They should totally do a bexit episode, or a brexiy trilogy.

Show several alt timelines that reflect the choices available now, and two years ago before the referendum.

Ryan and Yaz have to decide which is the best route to take to the 22nd century Dalek occupation, and 30th century solar flares.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

They should totally do a bexit episode, or a brexiy trilogy.

Show several alt timelines that reflect the choices available now, and two years ago before the referendum.

Ryan and Yaz have to decide which is the best route to take to the 22nd century Dalek occupation, and 30th century solar flares.

So Starship UK never happens?

 

[Guy Gardener]

So Starship UK never happens?

That's the 30th century Solar flares, referenced way back in The Ark in Space and Sontaran experiment. There were ecological problems mentioned in The Mutants, on 30th century Earth too. Everything is connected.

The First Doctor story The Ark... Why did they leave Earth?

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

That's the 30th century Solar flares, referenced way back in The Ark in Space and Sontaran experiment. There were ecological problems mentioned in The Mutants, on 30th century Earth too. Everything is connected.

The First Doctor story The Ark... Why did they leave Earth?

I don't know.

It's been a bloody long time since I have watched old Dr Who and I can't recall why the Ark was there in Ark In Space. Wasn't it a colonization thing?

 

[Guy Gardener]

I don't know.

It's been a bloody long time since I have watched old Dr Who and I can't recall why the Ark was there in Ark In Space. Wasn't it a colonization thing?

The Doctor cures a virus on a human generational ship, 10 million years into Earths future, that uses Monoids, green alien cyclopaes, as slaves. After the TARDIS team pissed off back to the vortex, Stephen Taylor falls asleep at the TARDIS controls, and the TARDIS lands back on the same generational ship 700 years later, but it's now the Monoids keeping the humans as slaves.

It's weird, but in ten million years hence, humans have forgotten how to build ftl engines.

Earth doesn't submit to the sun until the year 5 billion in the second 9th Doctor story "The End of the World".

It's possible that the Ark left Earth before Earthlings invented FTL, and it's taken them millions of years to reach a livable planet a hand full of light years away.

 

[Gingerbread Demon]

Hey didn't the Ark In Space also have the Wirrn?

Also The Snowmen was one of the best Matt Smith story and that version of Clara was the best Clara.

Although Dalek Clara would have made an amazing companion

 

[jaime]

Dude, it's called acting.

Ingrid was playing a villainous corrupt Italian police chief femme fatale.

Admire her range.

XD

 

[jaime]

Cosmicbooknews hey? The guys that seem to have issues with strong female leads.

The rumour itself seems to have surfaced on who forums and maybe twitter.

 

[StCoop]

The rumour itself seems to have surfaced on who forums and maybe twitter.

And that makes it somehow more believable?

AFAIK it originated at Roobarb's forum, which is populated by people who think "real" Doctor Who died in 1977.

As happy as I'd be to see Chibnall gone I'll believe it if it turns up somewhere like Private Eye.

 

[jaime]

And that makes it somehow more believable?

AFAIK it originated at Roobarb's forum, which is populated by people who think "real" Doctor Who died in 1977.

As happy as I'd be to see Chibnall gone I'll believe it if it turns up somewhere like Private Eye.

I heard it was Gallifrey base (and the outside may describe here in unflattering terms...)

But yes, Private Eye reporting it would be interesting.

 

[starsuperion]

I heard it was Gallifrey base (and the outside may describe here in unflattering terms...)

But yes, Private Eye reporting it would be interesting.

I also heard it came from Gallifrey Base. Interestingly, RT had their "unnamed sources" rebuttals, which I am sure is to placate their side of this back and forth.
My feeling is. Until it's officially debunked by the BBC press release, it could be true either way. If its true, then the only parts that I really want or care about is the idea of Whitehouse, or Gaiman, writing and showrunning with Sheen as the Doctor. Tho I can't see how that is true given sheen is playing a serial killer father assiting his son whose FBI solve murders. Tho who knows, maybe he does 1 season. Dies and his son continues without his father and Sheen makes cameo flash back appearances from time to time.

Who knows. The fact that the BBC went from Production of Who every year with a decent episode run from RTD to Moffat, until Capaldi makes me worried about the state of their production capability. Why was it easier in 2005-12 to produce a series then today with all the time off,between and such? Are there no good writers out there? Preproduction special effects never took that long before and Honestly I think some of the SPFX in the earlier RTD and Moff era was better then some of the latter work we are getting now.

Either way, I concur with the original assessment. The show is a mess right now, when you look at the big picture. Sans the political bias stuff. Take those goggles off, along with the fanboy Tee, and yea. Something's afoot with all this. Too many hands in the cookie jar? Too many chefs in the kitchen perhaps? Who knows.. It is unsettling to see..

 

[jaime]

I also heard it came from Gallifrey Base. Interestingly, RT had their "unnamed sources" rebuttals, which I am sure is to placate their side of this back and forth.
My feeling is. Until it's officially debunked by the BBC press release, it could be true either way. If its true, then the only parts that I really want or care about is the idea of Whitehouse, or Gaiman, writing and showrunning with Sheen as the Doctor. Tho I can't see how that is true given sheen is playing a serial killer father assiting his son whose FBI solve murders. Tho who knows, maybe he does 1 season. Dies and his son continues without his father and Sheen makes cameo flash back appearances from time to time.

Who knows. The fact that the BBC went from Production of Who every year with a decent episode run from RTD to Moffat, until Capaldi makes me worried about the state of their production capability. Why was it easier in 2005-12 to produce a series then today with all the time off,between and such? Are there no good writers out there? Preproduction special effects never took that long before and Honestly I think some of the SPFX in the earlier RTD and Moff era was better then some of the latter work we are getting now.

Either way, I concur with the original assessment. The show is a mess right now, when you look at the big picture. Sans the political bias stuff. Take those goggles off, along with the fanboy Tee, and yea. Something's afoot with all this. Too many hands in the cookie jar? Too many chefs in the kitchen perhaps? Who knows.. It is unsettling to see..

I went and joined Gallifrey Base to have a nose around. Looked around reddit and whatnot.

The sheen and Gaiman stuff is wishful thinking, even if the BBC were willing to throw pots of cash at them to get the series back on track (assuming the rumour is true) I just don’t see it.

The basics of it have an air of truth..production hold ups to do with scripts, angry execs at test screenings..these are possible.
This is not how I would like to go into a new wilderness years, if we are to go at all. (And let’s be honest, we really do seem to be a few years off at best. The show just isnt what it was in terms of the public consciousness. We are at Trial Of A Timelord stage, possibly Paradise Towers O’Clock based on even the current look of the show.) The gaps between seasons, the reduced episode count...the loss of the traditional slog...the loss of the Christmas slot. All aside from that last one seem unpleasantly familiar. History is repeating as farce.

Amusingly the fans are calling in jest for Andrew Cartmel...maybe he could spring a King Arthur.