The Claustrophobic Feel of Enterprise

[Timo]

Despite the deceptive retconning done by the people involved in the Berman camp, watching TOS makes it clear the warp engines were away from the body of the Enterprise.

Except not - the pylons specifically place them as close to the body (saucer) of the ship as possible, negating all the good work done by the neck that places the secondary hull away from the primary!

The NX-01 design does a better job there, with the pylons actually moving the nacelles away from the hull, and not back towards it. Perhaps early Starfleet engineers indeed thought that nacelles should be kept away from the crew (even if sometimes the crew should be kept in the nacelles!), and by the time of Larry Marvick, they had wisened up and put the nacelles close to the saucer for Kirk's ship...

No objection to the idea that ENT might have done a warp core ejection or three, to highlight the dangers. Or a nacelle ejection, or both. Of course, the problem then would be "Now what?", as it's not as if Starfleet would have had a repair or even retrieval infrastructure in place... Archer might be stranded in space for decades even in the best case.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

"Babel One" through "Aenar" was it

Not much of a "war."

. Even Nuclear submarines had meltdowns on their fusion power sources

No nation has ever build a workable fusion reactor

no, the war came before the formation of the Federation.

In the mid 2260's Spock referred to the war being a century before.

 

[XCV330]

A missed opportunity I thought ENT should've addressed was the potential dangers of having a warp core in the bowels of the ship. Even Nuclear submarines had meltdowns on their fusion power sources which had catastrophic circumstances for the crew. When TOS was being designed by Matt Jefferies, he already was smart enough to realize the warp engines, intact within the propulsion units, would be too powerful to be inside the lower levels of the Enterprise. Despite the deceptive retconning done by the people involved in the Berman camp, watching TOS makes it clear the warp engines were away from the body of the Enterprise.

Gene Roddenberry's re-imagination of the engines inside the Enterprise in TMP was flawed and the designs of the core became bigger in TNG - but never exude or follow through TMP Hazmat suits - and the solution for a breach would be to eject it. Space travel always had risks and traveling across space would be an extreme risk, and for a ship which would be supposedly pioneering, kind of, should have some limits like not having an ejection core "get out of jail free card" but handling a survival fall out from the warp core which would support why space travel evolved when Pike's vessel, the Starship Class, came to be.

remind me, where was the warp core on Reliant? Was Berman involved in that?

 

[Timo]

Not much of a "war."

Which is sort of the point: officers of Kirk's era barely remembered this conflict. A minor scuffle might thus best qualify.

No nation has ever build a workable fusion reactor

Or had a fission one really "melt down" on them. But Trek is more advanced in so many respects... Perhaps their fusion subs did keep blowing up?

In the mid 2260's Spock referred to the war being a century before.

...A rare instance of imprecision, where we don't even get an "almost" or an "over" to help us along. And it being between parties of which neither was named "Federation" does not mean much, as we don't really know whether the early UFP would have participated in its members' wars or not.

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

And it being between parties of which neither was named "Federation" does not mean much, as we don't really know whether the early UFP would have participated in its members' wars or not.

The early Federation might not have included a defense pact, this coming later.

The conflict was (iirc) called the Earth/Romulan war, but that might be Human ego. Spock did mention allies, which could be a reference to other Federation members.

Did the Romulan war start first, with the Federation being formed subsequently? Or did the Coalition of Planets transition/re-name into the Federation, followed at some point by the Romulan war?

 

[Henoch]

Earth Outposts were still guarding the RNZ after a century. I bet the war was between Romulans and Earth Forces. Maybe the Vulcans volunteered to mediate the peace treaty. Definitely not a Federation treaty.

...A rare instance of imprecision, where we don't even get an "almost" or an "over" to help us along. And it being between parties of which neither was named "Federation" does not mean much, as we don't really know whether the early UFP would have participated in its members' wars or not.

SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.​

Is Spock referring to a century after: 1. the construction of the outposts; 2. establishment of the treaty; or 3. the start/middle/end? of the conflict. I would assume that Spock is referring to the treaty which may also be the end of the conflict. His statement would not be a reference to the start of the conflict. Start of conflict is when? Memory Alpha puts the start in at 2156 and the finish in 2160. So, The actual time is ~106 years ago.

KIRK: After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles? I doubt they'll radio and identify themselves.​

Kirk says "after a whole" century, so, this means that at least 100+ years have passed since the conflict. This is still in line with the above timeline. Spock says the end of the conflict was a century ago. Kirk says the actual conflict was 100+ years ago. A 5 year conflict is not counteracted by either quote.

 

[STEPhon IT]

remind me, where was the warp core on Reliant? Was Berman involved in that?

I wouldn't have a clue where the Reliant's warp core was since it was never seen in TWOK. The Enterprise warp core was seen and scenes of engineering team wearing radiation suits gives the impression the technology could be dangerous to be around it. TOS' idea of having the warp engines in the propulsion units were the right move to keep such a powerful tech to be away from the ship. As for NX-01, it would've been great to see the steps where Jefferies' designs for TOS Enterprise come to be, but retconning the concept of a warp core never helped a continuity of tech to TOS.

 

[Henoch]

As for NX-01, it would've been great to see the steps where Jefferies' designs for TOS Enterprise come to be, but retconning the concept of a warp core never helped a continuity of tech to TOS.

I agree, don't retcon TNG terms onto TOS. BUT, IF one did, the warp core would be the pipe cathedral.

 

[Tenacity]

I wouldn't have a clue where the Reliant's warp core was since it was never seen in TWOK

I seem to remember a scene in TWOK where the Enterprise fires on the Reliant and one of Khan's people is standing by the warp core (reactor) and is thrown over a railing.

 

[Kor]

I seem to remember a scene in TWOK where the Enterprise fires on the Reliant and one of Khan's people is standing by the warp core (reactor) and is thrown over a railing.

Here at about 1:53, right after the Enterprise shoots at Reliant's left nacelle:

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Kor

 

[Tenacity]

^ that scene would seem to suggest that the warp core seen was in the port side nacelle, with a counter part warp core in the starboard nacelle maybe?

redunance,

but the reliant could of had a single core in the main body of the ship, with the explosive energy traveling up the pylon into the warp core compartment.

 

[Timo]

I agree, don't retcon TNG terms onto TOS. BUT, IF one did, the warp core would be the pipe cathedral.

I don't see why, given the context: in ENT specifically, the retconning of TNG terms to "old" Trek is solid done-deal reality...

(And the pipe cathedral becomes the warp core in DSC, but that's admittedly a different context.)

Timo Saloniemi

 

[Tenacity]

SPOCK: Referring to the map on your screens, you will note beyond the moving position of our vessel, a line of Earth outpost stations. Constructed on asteroids, they monitor the Neutral Zone established by treaty after the Earth-Romulan conflict a century ago.

Is Spock referring to a century after ...

It sounds (to me) like "a century ago" refers to the conflict, and not the outpost construction, nor the treaty. I've always thought the Romulan War to be a multi-year affair, so where the century mark would be is undefined.

Memory Alpha puts the start in at 2156 and the finish in 2160.

Does memory alpha give a reference for where it's getting these years?

The episode first aired in December of 1966, if you believe that TOS is basically three centuries in the future from the time of production, then the "century" could be approximately the end of 2166.

KIRK: After a whole century, what will a Romulan ship look like, Mister Stiles?

Kirk says "after a whole" century, so, this means that at least 100+ years have passed since the conflict.

Not necessarily plus. Kirk's "after a whole century" could mean since the last time a Earth ship saw a Romulan ship, the last time there was combat perhaps. This would make the century at the end of the war.

If it was hypothetically a three year war, then the conflict was 2163 through 2166.

 

[trekshark]

but the reliant could of had a single core in the main body of the ship, with the explosive energy traveling up the pylon into the warp core compartment.

that was always how I took the scene in question. Hitting the nacell caused some kind of surge

 

[Gabriel]

Well the books but it before the creation of the federation. I know I know it not cannon but hey it works for me. Kinda makes sense that it took a war for them then to realize they are stronger together.

 

[Prax]

Tucker on the dangers of working in engineering.

 

[Tenacity]

I thought mirror-Trip's face got like that from "helping" T'Pol with her pon-farr.

 

[Prax]

Maybe if Vulcan sex in the mu involves flamethrowers

 

[DonIago]

MU Pon Farr is Serious. Business.

 

[trekshark]

Wasn't it delta radiation from the terran empire's poorly shielded reactors?