The Last Jedi - Actually Widely Hated?

[saddestmoon]

That's precisely why, now that the dust has thoroughly settled on the PT, I rank TPM as the best of the three films. After it came out, I ranked ROTS as the best of the PT. But now I think that creatively TPM was the biggest step up. I also think that TPM looks the best of the three, being shot on film, but I digress.

I concur with you on this point: TPM works the best of the three PT movies, IMO - and as a setup for the remaining two prequel movies to come, it was an intriguing gateway into this era of SW.

For me, the prequel movies start to fall apart plot-wise during AOTCs, and absolutely at ROTS. They also start to look more obviously CG in their effects - and less cohesive with the rest of live-action components sharing the visuals.

Others mileage may vary of course...

 

[DonIago]

I still feel that TPM is too "Star Wars for kids". Which, if that's the target audience, great, but I was in college when it came out.

It may be the SW film I least want to rewatch.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

if that's the target audience, great, but I was in college when it came out

Hmmm. I was older.

 

[fireproof78]

I still feel that TPM is too "Star Wars for kids". Which, if that's the target audience, great, but I was in college when it came out.

It may be the SW film I least want to rewatch.

I was 15 when it came out and did not enjoy it as a SW movie, though it definitely had it's fun moments. I may not want to rewatch all of it, but there are definitely moments that I enjoy. I also think it is one of the most visually striking of the Star Wars films.

 

[DonIago]

I mean, there's moments in all of the SW films that I enjoy, so I'm not sure whether that's saying much.

I'll give it points for the visuals, but I come from a writing background, so if the visuals are awesome but the story has issues, that's going to be a possibly-larger problem for me than for others.

 

[fireproof78]

I'll give it points for the visuals, but I come from a writing background, so if the visuals are awesome but the story has issues, that's going to be a possibly-larger problem for me than for others.

Well, the PT on a whole has story and character issues, so I can appreciate that. It was very odd for me, walking out of the theater and just wondering what I had just watched with TPM.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Yeah, story-wise all three PT films have issues. The beginning of ROTS is an utter mess, for example. So is Utapau. Ditto for the opera house scene. That's just getting started.

Story-wise, SW77 & TESB are head and shoulders above all of the others, and their plots have important issues too.

 

[crookeddy]

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019...qB2FUTiFyqvzR3n2qqr-RPkZ9quXIL8SbrW-YeFJYXkYk

Some tidbits here that I haven't really followed such as Rian Johnson saying he will be ok if JJ doesn't choose to follow any of the threads set up in Last Jedi. This contradicts what certain posters have been posting on here, namely that all the directors are in full agreement of the direction of the trilogy.

 

[fireproof78]

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019...qB2FUTiFyqvzR3n2qqr-RPkZ9quXIL8SbrW-YeFJYXkYk

Some tidbits here that I haven't really followed such as Rian Johnson saying he will be ok if JJ doesn't choose to follow any of the threads set up in Last Jedi. This contradicts what certain posters have been posting on here, namely that all the directors are in full agreement of the direction of the trilogy.

"Full agreement?" More like full awareness, with Johnson not having the final say without oversight.

 

[Gavin70]

This contradicts what certain posters have been posting on here, namely that all the directors are in full agreement of the direction of the trilogy.

I didn't know that there was any thought that there was agreement over the direction of the trilogy. Every interview I've read indicated Rian Johnson basically had a blank slate to work with for the movie. And let's be honest, JJ doesn't exactly have a history of planning endings of things, he's more of a "let's just write it and see if we can somehow tie it all together at the end" kind of guy, so did anyone really think he'd planned out where the trilogy was going in advance?

 

[crookeddy]

I didn't know that there was any thought that there was agreement over the direction of the trilogy. Every interview I've read indicated Rian Johnson basically had a blank slate to work with for the movie. And let's be honest, JJ doesn't exactly have a history of planning endings of things, he's more of a "let's just write it and see if we can somehow tie it all together at the end" kind of guy, so did anyone really think he'd planned out where the trilogy was going in advance?

Yes, there are certain posters that did.

 

[Qonundrum]

https://comicbook.com/starwars/2019...qB2FUTiFyqvzR3n2qqr-RPkZ9quXIL8SbrW-YeFJYXkYk

Some tidbits here that I haven't really followed such as Rian Johnson saying he will be ok if JJ doesn't choose to follow any of the threads set up in Last Jedi. This contradicts what certain posters have been posting on here, namely that all the directors are in full agreement of the direction of the trilogy.

Which is okay, Rian didn't exactly follow all those empty little hints JJ set up to begin with - he almost consciously subverted a number of them, though of those the "Rey's parents are worthless drunkards like the ex" would be the easiest to undo as a fake-out. And news articles from before TLJ were also saying there wasn't any strict continuity or vision for the (then-)new trilogy anyway.

Yes, there are certain posters that did.

Perhaps in 2015 many people were thinking "This is just setting up something big with continuity" and giving a pass despite the fact it's another redo of "A New Hope", slightly less crass than "Return of the Jedi". Arguably by people not familiar with JJ's "mystery box" (that never gets demystified) style. What else are known to magicians, which is what movies are nothing more than?

 

[HaventGotALife]

I worked twelve hours the day I saw this film. A friend from Grade School and I went to dinner, caught up as it had been 15 years since our last visit, and bought tickets to see a franchise that was formative for both of us.

The first twenty minutes were terrible. The Hux/Hugs comment, resistance fighters treating this battle like the Republic was not just destroyed after a generation of Imperial rule. The tone was wrong. And, after being awake for 16 hours, a full meal in the belly, I slept. It would seem like 20 minutes to me. It was half the movie next to a friend I hadn't seen in fifteen years. Snoring in a movie theater. Pissed off the friend, and is the perfect symbol for this movie.

Finn's character should become the leader of the Resistance. He overcame the First Order's brainwashing to rescue a Resistance fighter, faced a deserter urge in "The Force Awakens," and helped defeat Kylo Ren with a Lightsaber, shouldn't be trying to desert the Resistance, again. His storyline could have been cut from the film and lost nothing.

With the (obvious) symbolism of Leia's almost death at the hands of her son, and losing the nerve to have his minions do it, beyond his control, I am convinced that is Ren's arc.

Leia flying through space, able to cheat death with powers never developed, and find an escape hatch, with no oxygen, breaks the fourth wall. It had me looking for an escape hatch.

The firepower aimed at "Force Projection Luke" was terrible. Luke's entire arc is to find hope, come full circle, and die. That's great. But, his initial reluctance, sipping off milk (A moment out of Spaceballs) of an animal...this movie sucks, actually.

This reeked of not knowing what to do with this franchise. We still don't know Rey's parents or why she was left on Jakku. There's no Han fallout. The choices of Driver are blunt. Rey's "force" connection reeks of brother/sister. Her draw to the dark side meant to frighten the audience.

Where are the Wills and George Lucas? The R2-C3PO nonsense can at least be edited out of the prequels.

I will see this to the end, but Disney is living up to my low expectations.

 

[fireproof78]

This reeked of not knowing what to do with this franchise. We still don't know Rey's parents or why she was left on Jakku.

We don't need to.

There's no Han fallout.

Just Kylo's emotional fragility and Luke comforting his sister. Nope, no fallout at all.

The choices of Driver are blunt.

Because he is emotionally unstable. He thinks in very black and white terms.

Rey's "force" connection reeks of brother/sister.

Not sure how...? Especially when Snoke states he did it. Not complicated.

Her draw to the dark side meant to frighten the audience.

Not seeing it. I was not frightened. I was intrigued.

Finn's character should become the leader of the Resistance. He overcame the First Order's brainwashing to rescue a Resistance fighter, faced a deserter urge in "The Force Awakens," and helped defeat Kylo Ren with a Lightsaber, shouldn't be trying to desert the Resistance, again. His storyline could have been cut from the film and lost nothing.

Completely disagree on this point. Finn is one of my favorite characters because he is finding his place. It is not cut and dry where he fits in, and how the Resistance is to treat him.

With due respect, this criticism reeks of trope after trope. I don't want SW paint by numbers. I'm not saying Disney is handling it perfectly but I certainly don't think its the worst. Not by a long shot.

 

[HaventGotALife]

We don't need to.

Just Kylo's emotional fragility and Luke comforting his sister. Nope, no fallout at all.

His fragility is from being drawn back to the light, his anger at Luke, more about Luke trying to kill him. He disappoints Snoke, playing out his internal conflict, the voice might as well be his own; Snoke is playing on his fears. How does that relate to Han?

Not sure how...? Especially when Snoke states he did it. Not complicated.

Snoke did that? Must've slept through that part.

Han: I hope Luke wasn't on that thing when it blew.
Leia: He wasn't. I felt it.

Not seeing it. I was not frightened. I was intrigued.

Sure, the future of the Resistance hangs in the balance, Luke is calling to her to stop going into the hole, she is alone and enters that hall of mirrors, looking for the answers she seeks, and is completely comfortable doing it...if you aren't scared, you're looking for a trope. Good winning over evil. It's only the "only hope in the galaxy" playing in the "Dark Side," proving Luke right.

Completely disagree on this point. Finn is one of my favorite characters because he is finding his place. It is not cut and dry where he fits in, and how the Resistance is to treat him.

Complexity in the face of an existential threat can kill you. Was General Patton or Douglas MacArthur contemplating every life lost in WWII or was he fighting for the survival of freedom and the Allied forces, including prosecuting deserters? He isn't on a college campus. This is war.

With due respect, this criticism reeks of trope after trope. I don't want SW paint by numbers. I'm not saying Disney is handling it perfectly but I certainly don't think its the worst. Not by a long shot.

This is dangerous, dark. Kylo Ren has slaughtered the remaining Jedi. The First Order has destroyed the New Republic, not to mention entire planets in doing so. The stakes are high entering this movie. Luke saying "no" gives Rey some downtime. The First Order should move in for the kill while the Resistance has to go on the offensive. Instead of the darkest in the three trilogies, we are treated to actual tropes. This is war. Will Finn have an easier or harder time finding himself if Rey isn't successful and the New Resistance fails?

Everyone is acting like the Good guys will win, no matter what. Lose the New Republic? We'll get it back. Lose the entire fleet? We'll get it back. The Resistance is about to be annihilated? Let's fire everything at Luke Skywalker, and fail.

Don't worry--they'll tie it up nicely, in the end. To be clear, the anger is at this movie, not your analysis.

 

[fireproof78]

His fragility is from being drawn back to the light, his anger at Luke, more about Luke trying to kill him. He disappoints Snoke, playing out his internal conflict, the voice might as well be his own; Snoke is playing on his fears. How does that relate to Han?

Because killing Han was to strengthen him in the Dark Side. Instead, it weakens him. Yeah, it comes back to Han.

Snoke did that? Must've slept through that part.

Han: I hope Luke wasn't on that thing when it blew.
Leia: He wasn't. I felt it.

Snoke states it. Period.

Sure, the future of the Resistance hangs in the balance, Luke is calling to her to stop going into the hole, she is alone and enters that hall of mirrors, looking for the answers she seeks, and is completely comfortable doing it...if you aren't scared, you're looking for a trope. Good winning over evil. It's only the "only hope in the galaxy" playing in the "Dark Side," proving Luke right.

Please don't presume my mind. I am intrigued as to what Rey will find, not expecting anything.

Complexity in the face of an existential threat can kill you. Was General Patton or Douglas MacArthur contemplating every life lost in WWII or was he fighting for the survival of freedom and the Allied forces, including prosecuting deserters? He isn't on a college campus. This is war.

Why would the Resistance trust a former First Order stormtrooper in the midst of their existential threat? At best, he is an informant and possible ally. He isn't someone to fully trust...yet. But, I guess in the face of extinction trusting him is fine...? I doubt Patton would do that.

This is dangerous, dark. Kylo Ren has slaughtered the remaining Jedi. The First Order has destroyed the New Republic, not to mention entire planets in doing so. The stakes are high entering this movie. Luke saying "no" gives Rey some downtime. The First Order should move in for the kill while the Resistance has to go on the offensive. Instead of the darkest in the three trilogies, we are treated to actual tropes. This is war. Will Finn have an easier or harder time finding himself if Rey isn't successful and the New Resistance fails?

Everyone is acting like the Good guys will win, no matter what. Lose the New Republic? We'll get it back. Lose the entire fleet? We'll get it back. The Resistance is about to be annihilated? Let's fire everything at Luke Skywalker, and fail.

How would you like them to behave? These comments strike me as very odd. The Resistance is fleeing for their lives, while creating a diversion to survive, losing many more lives in the process.

All these remarks feel highly contradictory in a film that is to take place not long after Starkiller's destruction, which means not much longer since the New Republic capital and fleet were destroyed and the First Order sweeps through.

Finn finding his place makes more sense than giving him command of his former enemy's forces. That strains credulity.

 

[Set Harth]

Rian didn't exactly follow all those empty little hints JJ set up to begin with - he almost consciously subverted a number of them, though of those the "Rey's parents are worthless drunkards like the ex" would be the easiest to undo as a fake-out.

That one isn't as much of a swerve as people like to think. Listen to what Maz tells Rey in TFA. It isn't fundamentally divergent from what Kylo tells her in TLJ.

( On the other hand, if there's a clue or "hint" about what's really going on with Rey, it might be in TLJ as opposed to TFA. )

Leia flying through space, able to cheat death with powers never developed

You assume too much.

Rey's "force" connection reeks of brother/sister.

Seriously? This again?

 

[JD]

Yeah, no matter what new information we get about Rey's origins, I can pretty much guarantee she's not a Skywalker/Solo. I have to admit, I did think there was a chance for a while, but her interactions with Luke and Leia, and what Kylo told her have pretty solidly ruled that out at this point.

 

[BillJ]

Yeah, no matter what new information we get about Rey's origins, I can pretty much guarantee she's not a Skywalker/Solo. I have to admit, I did think there was a chance for a while, but her interactions with Luke and Leia, and what Kylo told her have pretty solidly ruled that out at this point.

As long as the movie is entertaining, I don't really care what her origins are.

 

[fireproof78]

As long as the movie is entertaining, I don't really care what her origins are.

Two out of three so far. The odds are in our favor.