Kirk’s Comment in Elaan of Troyius

[Marsden]

Great post.

What did you think of the remastered effects for EoT? When I rewatched it the other day - and found to my total shock that it was a good, perhaps even excellent episode - I used CBS All Access, so I saw the new effects. I may rewatch again (I liked it that much!) with the original effects but I'm curious about your opinion.

I was actually a bit let down. Some of the much maligned 3rd season with the lowest budget had some of the best ship effects, and the Remasters seemed to make it worse, certainly not an improvement.

For example, Errand of Mercy, which had good effects of the ship being hit was replaced with a less dramatic bigger hit against the front edge of the saucer which I didn't care for but it also showed the Klingon firing them and the debris field, so I call that a win overall.

Doomsday Machine did much better with the Constellation and the ships movements following the action but the Machine itself looked worse and it's death seemed to change from a huge plume to a bluish blob, so I'm mixed on that again.

So with Elaan of Troyus, they show a lot more angles of the inferior Klingon model but the action wasn't really improved. A remaster that doesn't improve anything is a fail or loss to me.

 

[feek61]

I'm surprised at so many people defending the nobility of the Nichols/Roddenberry "love affair" but I'm going to let it go for the moment.
.

Not defending the nobility of the affair; I'm just simply pointing out that not everyone is a victim which I know is not a popular opinion these days but it is the truth in this case. The affair was most certainly consensual so trying to say that Nichols was a victim who was somehow forced to do sexual favors is pure hogwash. I am not defending the behavior, it's simply a fact confirmed by Nichols herself.

 

[Phaser Two]

I was actually a bit let down. Some of the much maligned 3rd season with the lowest budget had some of the best ship effects, and the Remasters seemed to make it worse, certainly not an improvement.

For example, Errand of Mercy, which had good effects of the ship being hit was replaced with a less dramatic bigger hit against the front edge of the saucer which I didn't care for but it also showed the Klingon firing them and the debris field, so I call that a win overall.

Doomsday Machine did much better with the Constellation and the ships movements following the action but the Machine itself looked worse and it's death seemed to change from a huge plume to a bluish blob, so I'm mixed on that again.

So with Elaan of Troyus, they show a lot more angles of the inferior Klingon model but the action wasn't really improved. A remaster that doesn't improve anything is a fail or loss to me.

Thanks. Good take. I'll give the original effects a shot now. BTW the remasters for me are mostly positive although it does seem to me that they could have done a better job with the Enterprise herself . However, seeing the Enterprise fly around like a Star Wars ship in Doomsday was worth the whole endeavor in my mind. There are so many smaller touches I love too, like the phaser stun sweep in Wink of an Eye (my third favorite ep so I dug that they gave it some attention). Stratos on Ardana. The nice-looking new planets. But they could redo it all again and improve some things and I'd be happy, or not. It's not a binary equation for me, just another way to enjoy my favorite-ever TV show, bar none.

Still can't believe how I thought I disliked Elaan all these years for some unknown reason and it turns out to be really, really good. I feel like I just discovered a lost episode or something.

 

[BK613]

^^ I find that the TOS-R fx betrays a lack of compositing and editing knowledge which has me favoring the original fx even when it is not as technically clean. The fx artists also didn't pay much attention to the story surrounding their new fx at times.

 

[Phaser Two]

^^ I find that the TOS-R fx betrays a lack of compositing and editing knowledge which has me favoring the original fx even when it is not as technically clean. The fx artists also didn't pay much attention to the story surrounding their new fx at times.

Interesting. Can you give an example?

 

[BK613]

Interesting. Can you give an example?

Don't want to derail the thread more than it has already been but a few quick examples:
this sequence uses the Rule of Thirds

http://tos.trekcore.com/gallery/albums/1x10/corbomitemanuever143.jpg

and this one doesn't

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/1x10hd/thecorbomitemaneuverhd272.jpg
----------
No Space Lake:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0278.jpg

Space Lake:

http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/3x02hd/theenterpriseincidenthd0278c.jpg

 

[Laura Cynthia Chambers]

Wasn't Uhura the first woman Nomad had analyzed? Spock was pointing out that she's not a mere "unit", a thing, but rather a woman, and somewhat different than all the men the probe had taken a good look at.

 

[Nyotarules]

There are a lot of women who are more logical, less emotional and better drivers than many men so why is it OK to generalise

Perhaps, but then why are the opposite traits considered negative and these ones more positive? Why are traits associated with males deemed more laudable than traits associated with females?
That's the problem in the first place!

Of the time" is a terrible argument for rationalizing any transgression as basically forgiveable. It overgeneralizes public attitudes and forgets that many people realized the transgression was wrong. Racism is racism. Sexism is sexism.

I don't see it as rationalising or forgiving but stating how the world was at that moment in time. The pioneers of the USA might have felt a bit uncomfortable about slavery, after writing all men are created equal, but then slaves were on the same level as livestock and if one wanted to indulge a 'bestial' fantasy then at least one did it with 'human cattle'. After all, its not as if they considered themselves on the same social level as any African or black person back then, weather slave or not, not even the poorest white person did in those days.
The Great President Lincoln freed the 'negroes' but he was not going to let any of his children marry one. And that's a reflection of the social reality of the USA up to and including the 1960's, just 50 years ago.

 

[Nyotarules]

Wasn't Uhura the first woman Nomad had analyzed? Spock was pointing out that she's not a mere "unit", a thing, but rather a woman, and somewhat different than all the men the probe had taken a good look at.

Well Uhura lost her mind but Scotty lost his life, he must have had a very chaotic mind!

 

[johnnybear]

Strangely it was easier for Nomad to repair Scotty than it was to return Uhura's memories!!!
JB

 

[Marsden]

Thanks. Good take. I'll give the original effects a shot now. BTW the remasters for me are mostly positive although it does seem to me that they could have done a better job with the Enterprise herself . However, seeing the Enterprise fly around like a Star Wars ship in Doomsday was worth the whole endeavor in my mind. There are so many smaller touches I love too, like the phaser stun sweep in Wink of an Eye (my third favorite ep so I dug that they gave it some attention). Stratos on Ardana. The nice-looking new planets. But they could redo it all again and improve some things and I'd be happy, or not. It's not a binary equation for me, just another way to enjoy my favorite-ever TV show, bar none.

Still can't believe how I thought I disliked Elaan all these years for some unknown reason and it turns out to be really, really good. I feel like I just discovered a lost episode or something.

Small explanation of why I said worse for the Remasers, besides @BK613 excellent post just above, they ruined some really nice work with the Tholian ships in Tholian Web. That was also about the only other episode where they actually showed weapons fire hitting a ship, but in this case Enterprise hitting the Tholian. The original Tholian was great, the replacements barely resemble the Tholian ship. It was a step down, IMO.

I have to give the Remasters credit for making the planet look more varied although they don't always seem like they have an atmosphere.

 

[Phaser Two]

Strangely it was easier for Nomad to repair Scotty than it was to return Uhura's memories!!!
JB

I always thought that was kind of cool. It leads to an immediate suggestion by Spock about "re-education," too. Come to think of it, The Changeling is an excellent, top-drawer episode for Spock. Except, you know, that one line.

 

[Phaser Two]

Small explanation of why I said worse for the Remasers, besides @BK613 excellent post just above, they ruined some really nice work with the Tholian ships in Tholian Web. That was also about the only other episode where they actually showed weapons fire hitting a ship, but in this case Enterprise hitting the Tholian. The original Tholian was great, the replacements barely resemble the Tholian ship. It was a step down, IMO.

I have to give the Remasters credit for making the planet look more varied although they don't always seem like they have an atmosphere.

Yes, I agree, TTW was an example of the remasters disappointing me a bit, specifically exactly what you mentioned. I did like the Defiant, though.

 

[ZapBrannigan]

Yes, I agree, TTW was an example of the remasters disappointing me a bit, specifically exactly what you mentioned. I did like the Defiant, though.

The CGI fx shined the brightest where the original fx were at their least impressive. Stratos city ("The Cloud Minders") and the Scalos city backdrop ("Wink of an Eye") were superb replacements. Also good: the new Starbase 11 window scenes in "The Menagerie" (Mendez's office and Pike's room).

But where the originals were at their best, the new fx failed to seem as real-looking or as well-composed. For just one example, they were never going to top this beauty shot:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x18hd/theimmunitysyndromehd0001.jpg

 

[Phaser Two]

The CGI fx shined the brightest where the original fx were at their least impressive. Stratos city ("The Cloud Minders") and the Scalos city backdrop ("Wink of an Eye") were superb replacements. Also good: the new Starbase 11 window scenes in "The Menagerie" (Mendez's office and Pike's room).

But where the originals were at their best, the new fx failed to seem as real-looking or as well-composed. For just one example, they were never going to top this beauty shot:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x18hd/theimmunitysyndromehd0001.jpg

Agreed, that's gorgeous. I wonder if they ever considered *not* altering the appearance of the Enterprise.

 

[johnnybear]

I always thought that was kind of cool. It leads to an immediate suggestion by Spock about "re-education," too. Come to think of it, The Changeling is an excellent, top-drawer episode for Spock. Except, you know, that one line.

The thing is that the Uhura that we have to know up until that point is not the same one that we see afterwards! she can't be! We are all a product of our experiences and memories. So unless they had a way to not only re-educate her but reinstill her own personality it feels a bit off in a way somehow!
JB

 

[Lance]

But where the originals were at their best, the new fx failed to seem as real-looking or as well-composed. For just one example, they were never going to top this beauty shot:
http://tos.trekcore.com/hd/albums/2x18hd/theimmunitysyndromehd0001.jpg

Shots like that are part of the reason why, even today, I think physical model photography will always top CG hands down. You can't beat the tangible sense of that model feeling like a real physical object, because it actually was, something that looks like it exists within the same interactive visual narrative space as the rest of the show. And I feel like, in TOS-R it's pretty bad at times, but in modern blockbuster movies it's often even worse. For all the strides in digital effects technology, I feel like our fictional cinema worlds are feeling less and less real, more and more like cartoons with actors in them. I find CGI takes me out of the reality of any situation faster than anything else can. Nothing can beat physical effects. Nothing.

 

[Mytran]

The thing is that the Uhura that we have to know up until that point is not the same one that we see afterwards! she can't be! We are all a product of our experiences and memories. So unless they had a way to not only re-educate her but reinstill her own personality it feels a bit off in a way somehow!
JB

True, she'd basically be a well programmed robot if that was the case!
However, if you go by the theory that her knowledge was just "deeply suppressed" by Nomad rather than wiped then it not only solves the "hyper schooling" that would otherwise have to take place but also means that we get our old Uhura back in one piece. Yay!

 

[johnnybear]

If it was just suppressed then surely Nomad could have brought her out of the 'trance' that he put her into?
JB

 

[Steven P Bastien]

However, if you go by the theory that her knowledge was just "deeply suppressed" by Nomad rather than wiped then it not only solves the "hyper schooling" that would otherwise have to take place but also means that we get our old Uhura back in one piece. Yay!

Yes. Remember she was speaking Swahili words during her retraining. This means she must actually retain a lot of memory, and really it would have to be all her memory. Otherwise how can a person learn all of the critical technical knowledge and training she has had throughout her life, and stay on board as an officer?