She'd be more akin to Gul Dukat and Gul Darheel ("Duet") in my book. I can't see making either of them the star of a show where they work for the Federation.
Drop the S31 show for a Captain Pike show?
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She'd be more akin to Gul Dukat and Gul Darheel ("Duet") in my book. I can't see making either of them the star of a show where they work for the Federation.
I just think its not too late to retool it based on public demand. In fact its the right time. CBS is in the unique position of having two Georgious. We love a bonafide hero that carries the torch for Starfleet optimism and ethics. I think most of us do, judging from how well Pike was received. Prime Georgiou was that kind of character and I wanted to see more of her when she was killed. I'm still not entirely certain this new series will be about the Empress. Star Trek universe has always been strange (two Rikers, etc) and it has been getting stranger. I'd like to see a Captain Georgiou series as much as I'd like to see a Captain Pike series. Sec31 not nearly as much, but I'm not fooling anyone if say I won't watch it.
I can't see it either. It would not be my first, second, third...ok, wouldn't be in my top 100 ideas for a Star Trek show. But, I'm not going to pretend that it doesn't exist either. Humans are not squeaky clean. Star Trek didn't pretend that and I'm not going to either.
Case in point.
The owners don't evaluate narrative, but the likely performance of the overall product. As several folks have pointed out, Yeoh is the selling point for the show, which simply has to be constructed along whatever lines will best showcase and promote her.
With good reason, BTW - she's awesome. Pity that these people can't come up with a more worthy platform for her.
On this point we agree.
Georgiou ordered the complete genocide of multiple species. She ATE sentient beings. We witnessed her wiping out a rebel base entirely, first strike, without any qualms. She murdered her own subordinates just to keep a secret. And she repeatedly, and viciously gloated in her victims faces, about how much she enjoyed eating "their kind".
She's not Hitler. She's a super-charged, comicbook version of Hitler30000.
I find it amusing that your primary problems with Nazi crimes is calling them out in their severity, and using false equivalence to put people commiting war crimes (which is bad, but multiple sides commited them during WWII), and somehow put them in the same boat as the people running the Holocaust and ordering total war (the people that got a trial at Nurenberg). That's a dangerous belittlement of what actually happened.
And yes, I did call you out on that. And I would do so again.
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To be fair, a large segment of Trek fandom think exactly like this.
You are something of a statistical anomaly. You are wrong more often than if you just had random thought-lets or whatever your process is escape your fingertips.
You've called me a nazi, and a member of the alt-right so any sympathy I have for you and whatever your inherent difficulties are is gone. You'll do anything to win an arguement then try to turn the very thing you've been doing against others, etc while losing track of the point and where you stood on the point. You're an amoeba juggling chainsaws. Why not just de-escalate? I'm willing.
Since you're going to dig your heels into that ad hominem sand and insult me; I will reiterate: this was about the idea that someone involved in war crimes, including genocide, could be involved in an intelligence operation. You felt it to be unthinkable with no real world examples. I and others have pointed out that it did indeed happen. A good case (and not the only case) in recent memory is Werner Von Braun. And he WAS involved in the holocaust as his action led to mass deaths of Jewish slave labor in his subterrainian wmd factories.
You have the gall to say that is a belittlement of what happened? Did you even know who Von Braun was or did you start Googling to become Internet Argument Expert? I thought your jurisprudence specialty was in tardigrade corporate conspiracies.
Oddly enough we both agree that Georgiou is not a good candidate to be in charge of Sec.31 (she's not, btw, Tyler is, who is also a bad choice, but that's another thread). Because of her experiences though she does make a very good intel source. It's not the first time Sec31 has been shown to make a poor choice in operatives. (Reed, Khan, Bashir) all of whom have backfired on the agency.
That was never the point. The point was the differentiation between "being involved in" and "running and ordering those things".
So, uh, "Don't talk about Nazis in my Nazi-are-awesome-analogy"?
Oh! Hey! That one moment where Sisko commited a war crime using WMDs against civilians, after which a massive amounts of fans tuned against him!
Titled "Why Sisko is awesome".
How am I not surprised?
Whatever the Hell this is about, it's sure not about Star Trek and a Pike Series or Georgiou Series.
Do you realize what you're calling XCV330?
This is just taking it to something else.
So, uh, "Don't talk about Nazis in my Nazi-are-awesome-analogy"?
Do you realize what you're calling XCV330?
This is just taking it to something else.
G
Gonzo
Guest
What if hitting only the one city was not enough after using the first one on a non inhabited area, the Japanese would have thought it a bluff until the Americans actually followed through and even then it took a second one.
It would have meant a land invasion of the two main Japanese islands and the death toll would have been in the millions.
They made the right call, not a good call or a fair call or a nice call but the necessary call and it worked, you can pull your punches if you like but I doubt your opponent will do the same, the Japanese Military at the time sure as hell wouldn't.
Some of the scientists switched because they were communist sleeper agents and had been from the start as the Russians had a pretty extensive network in the US, those that did give the bomb to Russia brought about the Cold War which was a horror show for most of eastern Europe unless you were a member of the Communist party (everyone is equal it's just that some are more equal than others), some of them just did it for the money, plus the Nazis had been working on a bomb and the Russians grabbed them while the Americans grabbed Werner Von Braun and his rocketry team.
It does make me laugh how so many these days think they know better when half of them weren't even born at the time and so many had already died after five years of war, too many people are far too quick to forget or think they know or could do better.
If some of the individuals on this board who like to publicly halo polish had been there at the time making the decisions we would have lost, it's sad to see that kind of zero sum game thinking.
Anyone who honestly thinks that the Americans nuked the Japanese just to frighten off the Russians need their heads examined, they wanted the war to be over and really didnt want to have to invade the two main islands as they knew it would be a meat grinder to end all that came before.
Events never turn out like they do in the films and TV shows, there is no happily ever after or easy way out, there are no heroes in war, only survivors who have to live with the guilt and try to rebuild their lives without the family and friends who didn't make it.
The freedom that everyone takes for granted these days was paid for in blood, the only currency that actually matters when all else fails, they did the best that they could with the information they had at the time.
I will leave it there and wont respond further on this.
Temporarily closing this thread pending review while I apparently have to sort out World War II.
At no point did XCV330 espouse an "alt.Right mindset", say "the Nazis were alright" or treat them as "awesome" or defend/minimize their actions; quite the opposite in fact. He simply was pointing out that there was precedence for former high ranking Nazis who oversaw terrible deeds in their former roles to be placed in charge of US and Soviet post-war rocketry programs because their expertise outweighed the moral and ethical cost of not prosecuting them in the view of the leadership of the time. That is quite simply fact, and one for subsequent generations to judge, but pointing it out as reality does not mean one shares that view or excuses their prior actions.That was never the point. The point was the differentiation between "being involved in" and "running and ordering those things".
So, uh, "Don't talk about Nazis in my Nazi-are-awesome-analogy"?
Oh! Hey! That one moment where Sisko commited a war crime using WMDs against civilians, after which a massive amounts of fans tuned against him!
Titled "Why Sisko is awesome".
How am I not surprised?
Nor does using it as an analogy for a completely fictional tyrant from another universe getting a second chance to serve as head of a shady covert intelligence agency mean you're on Team Nazi. That's a ridiculous leap of logic.
Also, he didn't name the YouTube video, he just used it as an example of Sisko committing an atrocity, so trying to turn that back around on him is silly.
You have an unfortunate track record of making these kinds of discussions overly personal like this.
Warning for trolling. Comments to PM.
You were provoked, but that doesn't excuse this. You could have just sent a notification and waited for the mods to deal with it. And even though you didn't outright say the words, the intent was clear.
Warning for flaming. Comments to PM.
I'm reopening the thread, but can we please move on from the Nazi discussion for a while and deal with the fictional tyrant heading up the show? Thanks.
Can't wait to see the show! Michelle is phenomenal!
I'll reiterate that a Section 31 show is not in my top 100 choices for developing a Trek show. However, it would also be highly selective of me to pretend like this doesn't exist, or somehow that Star Trek cannot survive with this show being a part of the story. We have had Section 31 in shows, in books, and various other materials. And fans are already treating as "canon-ish" with fudge and wiggle room. But, apparently, this S31 show is too far!
*insert Picard meme here*
*insert Picard meme here*
Sadly, the Nazi-genocide-torturer-cannibal-analogy is literally the core of the controversy around this show. As long as there are plans for making such a person the do-goody plucky hero of a fun adventure show, this discussion will always come up.
No one has a problem with evil-snarky Michelle Yeoh heading a spy show.
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