when did TOS take place, 23rd century or 22nd century

[johnnybear]

Surely TNG dated TOS as at least 80 years previous so The Neutal Zone was set in 2364 so most of the film TOS stuff must have been set in 2284 at the very least unless the eighty years comment is taken to the next decade?
JB

 

[Christopher]

15 years on Ceti Alpha V = 18 on Earth and aboard the Enterprise. More or less.

Yes, that was the approach Greg Cox took in To Reign in Hell -- that a Ceti Alpha V year was 1.2 Earth years. Really, every planet's "year" should be a different length, because they orbit stars of different masses at different distances. So the idea that a "year" is the same for everyone in the galaxy is unrealistic.

 

[Henoch]

So the idea that a "year" is the same for everyone in the galaxy is unrealistic.

Unless everyone is using clocks built for Federation Standard Timekeeping...

 

[Christopher]

Unless everyone is using clocks built for Federation Standard Timekeeping...

Yes, that's obviously a possibility, but my point is that acknowledging the existence of different year lengths for different planets is a handy way to reconcile discrepancies in stated "year" intervals in science fiction. Frankly, a lot of mass-media SF writers don't even seem to realize that years, days, etc. are not universal constants but would be different for every planet.

 

[Mytran]

15 years on Ceti Alpha V = 18 on Earth and aboard the Enterprise. More or less.

That accounts for Khan's mention of 15 years, but what about Kirk's?

 

[Boris Skrbic]

Non-Earth years are a classic but still a weak workaround for such issues, since it only takes another writer to feel differently and go back to the usual assumption of Earth years being used by default (which is what ultimately became a basic principle of the official Chronology no less). Instead I would’ve preferred that Okuda hadn’t assumed 2283 was an Earth year, especially since a two-year-old ale doesn’t come across as that remarkable.

 

[johnnybear]

What exactly is in Romulan ale? Must be more than just actual ale unless it is brewed with an hallucinogenic effect or it has a spirit in it as well as the ale?
JB

 

[STEPhon IT]

OK. I'm on page 7. Forgive me if this has already been pointed out.







We have this:

So promotional material from TMP was definitely stating 23rd Century.

As we know in TOS series the crew was in the 22nd Century; this just shows these movies were separate entities from one another because the aesthetics don't blend well. We must take into account Noonien Singh never met Chekov in the episode "Space Seed" but apparently in TWOK movie they knew each other quite well??? They met in the movies' own bizarro universe but not in the real TOS universe which is in the 22nd Century.

 

[Henoch]

That accounts for Khan's mention of 15 years, but what about Kirk's?

Kirk didn't really want to insult Khan's superior intellect behind his back, so, he converted to Khan's point of view. Just joking. I suppose that people default back to the time system they are raised on. Since both Khan and Kirk (speaking to other Eartherns such as Carol) are from Earth, then Earth years seem appropriate. If Kirk was thinking Federation/Starfleet time, then he would have said something like:

KIRK: There's a man out there I haven't seen in 5000 stardates who's trying to kill me.​

On a side note, dialog says 15 years and the stardate difference is 5000 units (8141.6 at the end of the movie and 3141.9 during/right after Space Seed). Are they implying that 5000 stardates are 15 years or 1000 stardates equal 3 years? I'm not buying. Maybe the common stardate clock drops the 10,000 level digit or resets every 10,000 stardates. Then, 15,000 stardates are 15 years where 1000 stardates equal one earth year (my preferred theory). After the TOS movies, Starfleet must have stopped resetting the damn clock every 10 years since everyone was getting confused. Sounds like the Trek BBS site.

especially since a two-year-old ale doesn’t come across as that remarkable.

That was the point of the Kirk/McCoy joke in the discussion, it was NOT a remarkable bottle of Romulan Ale aside for the obvious fact that it was a bottle of Romulan Ale which is supposedly illegal on Earth. Bottle labels are written in the language of its intended market, i.e. the smuggler market is Earth. "Ale" on Earth is not aged any great lengths (one year old beer is, well, ... not fresh and maybe a little stale). The 2283 year joke could imply that the year of the movie is 2283. This would make Space Seed in year 2268 (not the 2267 date if you assume exactly 300 years between airdate and in-universe date.)

 

[Tenacity]

We must take into account Noonien Singh never met Chekov in the episode "Space Seed"

The easiest explanation base on the information presented to us is that Chekov was present for Khan (with his memory for faces) to have both seen and been told what Chekov's name was.

Chekov knew who Khan was by name once Khan removed his face protection.

Perhaps they were introduced by Lt. McGivers while she and Khan were strolling down a corridor. Initially Khan appeared to have the run of the ship.

 

[cooleddie74]

That accounts for Khan's mention of 15 years, but what about Kirk's?

Kirk just rounded down.

He was going through a midlife crisis around his birthday. Give him a break. He had a lot on his mind!

 

[STEPhon IT]

The easiest explanation base on the information presented to us is that Chekov was present for Khan (with his memory for faces) to have both seen and been told what Chekov's name was.

Chekov knew who Khan was by name was once Khan removed his face protection.

Perhaps they were introduced by Lt. McGivers while she and Khan were strolling down a corridor. Initially Khan appeared to have the run of the ship.

If it wasn't seen on screen it doesn't count.

 

[Henoch]

If it wasn't seen on screen it doesn't count.

Which part, that Khan and Chekov recognized each other in TWOK, or that Khan met Chekov while strolling down the corridor in Space Seed? It is most probable that Khan and Chekov did meet on the Enterprise during Space Seed; we don't know the exact details. (Option 1)

Going back to my previous analysis on the 2283 date and 15 years ago, it puts Kirk's and Khan's last meeting no earlier than 2268. If you assume the 300 years between air date and in-universe date, then Space Seed occurred in (Feb.) 2267. Did Kirk (with Chekov now on the show in Season 2) revisit Khan about a year later in 2268? (Option 2)

I got the "feeling" that Kirk/Spock had no intention on ever revisiting Khan based on their closing dialog (back to Option 1):

SPOCK: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.​

 

[Discofan]

Which part, that Khan and Chekov recognized each other in TWOK, or that Khan met Chekov while strolling down the corridor in Space Seed? It is most probable that Khan and Chekov did meet on the Enterprise during Space Seed; we don't know the exact details. (Option 1)

Going back to my previous analysis on the 2283 date and 15 years ago, it puts Kirk's and Khan's last meeting no earlier than 2268. If you assume the 300 years between air date and in-universe date, then Space Seed occurred in (Feb.) 2267. Did Kirk (with Chekov now on the show in Season 2) revisit Khan about a year later in 2268? (Option 2)

I got the "feeling" that Kirk/Spock had no intention on ever revisiting Khan based on their closing dialog (back to Option 1):

SPOCK: It would be interesting, Captain, to return to that world in a hundred years and to learn what crop has sprung from the seed you planted today.
KIRK: Yes, Mister Spock, it would indeed.​

Isn't it possible that Chekov wasn't part of the bridge crew at that time and that's why we didn't see him? After all the Enterprise complement is about 400 people and we never see anything near that number of people per episodes.

 

[Christopher]

Isn't it possible that Chekov wasn't part of the bridge crew at that time and that's why we didn't see him? After all the Enterprise complement is about 400 people and we never see anything near that number of people per episodes.

Allan Asherman proposed in DC Comics' Who's Who in Star Trek that Chekov had been serving in engineering during "Space Seed" and had led the resistance against Khan's occupation thereof, which was why Khan recognized him. I adopted that explanation in my 2005 novel Ex Machina, and that Greg Cox also mentioned in To Reign in Hell: The Exile of Khan Noonien Singh from the same year, thanks to editorial coordination.

 

[Tenacity]

Isn't it possible that Chekov wasn't part of the bridge crew at that time

New hires get third shift.

 

[Boris Skrbic]

I must say I like the idea of multiple visits to Ceti Alpha V, the last one being in 2270, just before Kirk ended his FYM and thereby lost the ability to control the situation.

 

[Gabriel]

As we know in TOS series the crew was in the 22nd Century; this just shows these movies were separate entities from one another because the aesthetics don't blend well. We must take into account Noonien Singh never met Chekov in the episode "Space Seed" but apparently in TWOK movie they knew each other quite well??? They met in the movies' own bizarro universe but not in the real TOS universe which is in the 22nd Century.

CBS disagrees with you. And since they own Star Trek (whether we like or not) they get to decide what happens when. And I just happen to agree with them. And they majority of people agree with the 23rd century. Here’s another point I brought up earlier

well since all the other series say Tos happen in the 2200 and mid to late to be more precise. I tend to believe thy are right. majority rules. I'm a fan of democracy so it kinda influences my thinking. now sure they are other theories like each stress is its own universe and other things like that but in the end CBS says it happen in the 23rd century. and since they own Star Trek, well I think they are the final authority on that. now I think it fits since the constitution class seems too advance for the 2100's and plus if los happen in the 2100 and TNG happen in the 2300's they leaves a big hole and TOS characters appear in TNG. and I doubt Spock would be very active at the age of 238( he was trying to get a regime change on Romulus and that would be a very active thing). I got that if tos was in the 2100 then spock would have been born in 2130 and TNG's unification was in 2368. which is possible but since Spock is half Vulcan and half human im sure that would effect his lifespan.

So please explain how Spock is so active and sarek is still alive because he would have to be in his 300s if we were to go by your timeline. And Not even Vulcans seem to live that long
If Tos was just a show on its own I would believe its in the 22nd century buts its not. It’s a franchise and all the other ones say that tos is in the 23rd century. And it’s all one universe. Sure there are mess ups with the timeline but what do you expect for a franchise made over 50 years. It’s not all gonna be perfect. I don’t get bent out of shape because of retcons and I don’t see the reason to Change the timeline because of some words said in tos which is know for changing thins quickly. For example they changed the name of starfleet command quite a bit
Starfleet Command, Space Central, Space Command or Spacefleet Command, starfleet control.
I’m sorry but the constitution class is just too adavance for the 22nd century. I mean that’s not even an century after zeframe Cochrane. Plus you have to put in the founding of the federation and the romulan war.

 

[Kor]

CBS disagrees with you. And I have to agree with them. Here’s another point I brought up earlier

well since all the other series say Tos happen in the 2200 and mid to late to be more precise. I tend to believe thy are right. majority rules. I'm a fan of democracy so it kinda influences my thinking. now sure they are other theories like each stress is its own universe and other things like that but in the end CBS says it happen in the 23rd century. and since they own Star Trek, well I think they are the final authority on that. now I think it fits since the constitution class seems too advance for the 2100's and plus if los happen in the 2100 and TNG happen in the 2300's they leaves a big hole and TOS characters appear in TNG. and I doubt Spock would be very active at the age of 238( he was trying to get a regime change on Romulus and that would be a very active thing). I got that if tos was in the 2100 then spock would have been born in 2130 and TNG's unification was in 2368. which is possible but since Spock is half Vulcan and half human im sure that would effect his lifespan.

So please explain how Spock is so active and sarek is still alive because he would have to be in his 300s if we were to go by your timeline.
If Tos was just a show on its own I would believe its in the 22nd century buts its not. It’s a franchise and all the other ones say that tos is in the 23rd century.
I’m sorry but the constitution class is just too adavance for the 22nd century. I mean that’s not even an century after zeframe Cochrane. Plus you have to put in the founding of the federation and the romulan war.

I thought the whole premise of this thread was to consider TOS as "just a show on its own," deducing the best possible answer from the information provided within the show itself, and to disregard the retroactive continuity that arose when Trek became this monstrous franchise.

Kor

 

[BK613]

I believe the point of this thread is to consider TOS as "just a show on its own" and to disregard the retroactive continuity that arose when Trek became this monstrous franchise.

Kor

Agreed. If the question in the thread title is asked in the Gen Trek forum then retroactive continuity applies, but asking it in the TOS forum implies, at least to me, that one wants to know just what TOS says about itself. IMO. YMMV.