Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

[TIN_MAN]

I believe I was questioning the perceived necessity to cram the engineering section onto the saucer rim rather than spreading it out.

Okay, well in that case, there is no necessity, perceived or otherwise, to put anything anywhere, however the aforementioned line in "TUC" does imply a close association between the impulse engines and the "Engineering Section" which, let's remember, should not to be misconstrued as a reference to the secondary, or engineering Hull.

I'm going to disagree. Applying Occam's Razor it would appear that Scotty was just pointing out the glowy cathedral area that would technically be part of the engines (the stardrive). Plus he was about to go into problems with the circuits before he got cutoff.

Fair enough, as I said his gesture isn't very specific so it boils down to interpretation as to where hes pointing to, but what's not really open to interpretation is that the warp drive engines he's referring to, as well as the associated M/A-M fuel, are in the nacelles/pods. However, since the dilithium is seen to be accessed from engineering, it opens up the possibility that parts of the overall engine or propulsion system are spread out around the ship. And you've got a good point regarding Scotty about to go into problems with the circuits, so maybe he was actually pointing to the triangular doohickey in the middle of the floor, which might be the dilithium crystal converter assembly itself.

Okay, let's get into TMOST then. P174-175 gets it wrong on the Sickbay location. It states Deck 7 but in series ("Elaan Of Troyus") it's actually Deck 5.

First of all, I never said there were no discrepancies between TMOST and TOS, in fact, I said that "TMOST's deck by deck description is far more consistent with the show than it is inconsistent" which acknowledges there are discrepancies. And yes, the sickbay on deck 7 instead of 5 is one of those discrepancies, but you should have used the deck 5 SB reference from "Amok Time" -which came before TMOST was available to reference- to better make your point, because the "EOT" reference comes after info in TMOST was available to the writing staff (in the writers guide by this time?), so in this case, it's actually the show that is inconsistent with the TMOST rather than the other way around, which just goes to show what I've said all along, that the writing staff was more interested in a good story than in technical throwaway lines.

Also on P175, TMOST describes Deck 7 primarily Sickbay and labs with the outer section a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage and the computer core between Decks 7 and 8. This goes against Deck 7 being a place for an engineering section.

The "outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage" is a reference to the area surrounding the central "most protected part" of the ship (EOT) where the "undercut" on the bottom side of the saucer rises up and prevents full deck height and thus the perfect place for a "complex of water and other bulk storage", it is not a reference to the outermost edge or rim of the saucer, and so in no way does it contradict an engineering area in the impulse deck.

P171 speaks of the impulse engine and main engineering facilities at the "bottom rear end of the saucer" and it's apparent that when you look at the cutaway on P177 that is where they meant it to be with the 2 story area drawn in. Too bad it's literally in the neck and super narrow in actuality.

First of all, I was only talking about the "TMOST's deck by deck description", being used most of the time (during the second season), I never said anything about the cross section, precisely because it does not match the deck by deck description and because we have no evidence that the writing staff used it as a reference. And as for it being "apparent" that the cutaway shows where "they" wanted the engineering section to be is, quite frankly, balderdash. I'm not sure what that area is suppose to be, and neither is anybody else, but the very fact that it extends down into the 'too narrow' dorsal, as you point out, rules out the notion that it could/should be the engineering section mentioned in the text as being in the same location as the impulse engines. Also, the basic drawing is from Matt Jefferies, and he's on record as stating that he wanted the engine room to be in the secondary hull, so he never would have been so feeble minded as to place it in the dorsal, where it obviously would not fit. Incidentally, this is likely what led to the inconstancy in "DOTD" over the location of engineering, the writing staff was going by deck info consistent with TMOST, whereas MJ had his own ideas, which he communicated to the FX people. The same goes for the 11 decks in the deck by deck description vs the 7 or 8 decks in the cutaway, one is based on Jefferies deck levels, the other is not.

Not all burned out circuit = crystals. "WNMHGB" had a burned out point (metal cylinder thing) in a circuit in the impulse deck. "Main circuits" that didn't involve crystals were burned through in "The Enemy Within". Keeping to Occam's Razor, only the circuits called out as Lithium circuits burned out crystals. The bypass circuits would simply be circuits that route around the crystals.

First of all, once again, I never said all burned out circuits were crystal circuits, on the other hand, maybe that burned out point in "WNMHGB" is a "lithium crystal" circuit, and part of the starboard impulse pack which may in turn be part of the ships "power packs" and why Spock wants to adapt some of the "Lithium" cracking stations "power packs" to their engines? The rigging of "a" bypass circuit is what apparently routes around the crystals, switching to bypass circuits on the other hand requires a working "converter assembly".

Well that's the mystery that we play with

Well, what's your solution to the mystery?

"The Alternative Factor" is a different setup with paddles instead of crystals - and very well could be operating with 12 paddles at 2 paddles per circuit (hypothetically).

And I wonder if two of the crystals are rock-like and four are panel-like? Or maybe the six drawers are for as many as twelve different kinds of crystals; panels, points, rocks, etc etc.?

As said, not according to dialogue. It would've taken longer to fall out of orbit but they weren't under duress or in need of using lots of power so the ship could be nearly drained of energy at this point.

Notice that this episode points out that the loss of the first 2 crystals is preventing the ship from operating at full power. If the bypass circuits were really crystal circuits then it would be a simple matter of moving the 2 bypass crystals over to replace the 2 lost crystals to restore full power capability but that apparently isn't the case so in the TAF setup the bypass circuits are unlikely to be crystal circuits.

You're missing my point, the lack of noticeable power effects isn't the main issue, the point is we are told that almost all of their crystals were drained and we see only four, both in the re-amp drawers and in possession by each Lazarus, so this fits with six crystal total which fits with Kirk's line from "MW". Also, we don't know enough about the whole system to be dogmatic about it, it may be that the converter assembly "converts" energy/power from one type of crystal to anther, say from rock-like to panel-like and vice versa? It could be that the engine nacelles (and associated reactors?) use one type of (rock-like?) crystal and the rest of the ship's systems (and associated reactor?) are powered by another (panel-like?) crystal?

 

[publiusr]

Nice catch. Pure accident on my part. I never considered the TAS Enterprise, but now seeing it, it doesn't look half bad. I notice the TAS-E rear two windows are at flight deck level. It also explains how they park six shuttlecraft on the roomy flight deck.

If you go by the huge shuttlebay interior shots--it is also a good fit with the Discovery Enterprise in size.

 

[blssdwlf]

I seem to remember that different episodes used different deck designations for the same location. And with 3 different descriptions of the interior, it isn't surprising. We have Matt Jeffereis cross section which shows 9 decks in the saucer, the season 2 writer's bible listing 11, and the season 1 writer's bible listing 20. So in any episode with a deck reference you have to ask which version they were going by or did they just make it up and did the staff writers bother to correct it. My understanding of Roddenberry's main rewrite focus was to make the story work for the series and be outstanding. So how often did they bother to correct technical details, especially when one of their stated goals was to be vague and leave things unexplained. That is why I don't hold to a strict interpretation of everything in the series. They were using a different standard. It would drive the Thermians insane to try to reconcile all the contradictions. 20 years later when TNG came along, they realized fans cared about those things so they started keeping better track and making things more consistent. I think they Thermians could make an ENT D and even the Refit, but the TOS Enterprise would have them squabbling over details like we are. Without the outside sources and later canon to go by, a lot of these things just have too many variable answers.

Actually with the TOS Enterprise it is the easiest one to reconcile, if you were a Thermian. A Thermian wouldn't complicate it with a writer's bible or TMOST book because they would be just watching what was shown on TV. The concept of three different deck totals just wouldn't be there. Plus, there is only really one internal to external feature and that's the flight deck which makes scaling straightforward.

Now contrast this with the TMP Enterprise. You have the Rec Deck interior to the 8 windows on the saucer rim. Good luck getting that to fit and be screen accurate. Or reconciling the bad camera angle of the B-C deck officer's lounge. The engine room, cargo bay and flight deck internals aren't too bad if you stick to the on screen sources.

So let's not kid ourselves by thinking one way is better than the other. As I've said before, if you are using outside sources you should just ignore what's on screen and be okay with making it your version of it.

Edit: And to be clear, I'm not advocating a Thermian way. I'm debating your statements of why it isn't feasible for the TOS Enterprise. I do advocate being accurate to whatever source you are arguing for, whether it's on screen, TMOST, MJ's works, FJ's, etc.

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

In TNG the single big crystal is used for regulating the M/AM reaction into warp plasma. We know in "Peak Performance" that tiny dilthium chips in the warp core and AM fuel can run a ship like the Hathaway at warp speed.

In DS9, Enterprise and Voyager they change up the phrase to call it the "Dilithium Matrix" in the warp core which is absent from the TNG series. The recrystallization isn't present in the earlier Enterprise series though.

Interesting information. The purpose of what I was saying was just to suggest that 6 crystals makes sense for a simple solution to some details.

I'm afraid that TMoST suffers from the same inconsistency as the series itself. The deck descriptions and the cross section were done by different people and don't agree. And in the cross section there is no 2 story engineering space that we ever see in the series. it has things drawn in that we never witnessed. I'm sticking strictly to the text description of the saucer because that is what the TMP crew were using (by way, I think, of Franz Joseph). TMoST never describes any other deck contents, only saying that the secondary hull was given over to engineering and the hangar. So there I have made use of the cross section, but only so far as the contents go. For the decks I have gone by the windows on the exterior which create a different deck layout. The series itself is even more vague than TMoST and the only thing we ever get in the series to indicate where season 2/3 Main Engineering is comes in the way of a special effect from The Day of the Dove. And we all know how reliable the special effects were. Still, that places it on the same deck as the TMoST cross section does, although a bit forward.

I seem to remember that different episodes used different deck designations for the same location. And with 3 different descriptions of the interior, it isn't surprising. We have Matt Jeffereis cross section which shows 9 decks in the saucer, the season 2 writer's bible listing 11, and the season 1 writer's bible listing 20. So in any episode with a deck reference you have to ask which version they were going by or did they just make it up and did the staff writers bother to correct it. My understanding of Roddenberry's main rewrite focus was to make the story work for the series and be outstanding. So how often did they bother to correct technical details, especially when one of their stated goals was to be vague and leave things unexplained. That is why I don't hold to a strict interpretation of everything in the series. They were using a different standard. It would drive the Thermians insane to try to reconcile all the contradictions. 20 years later when TNG came along, they realized fans cared about those things so they started keeping better track and making things more consistent. I think they Thermians could make an ENT D and even the Refit, but the TOS Enterprise would have them squabbling over details like we are. Without the outside sources and later canon to go by, a lot of these things just have too many variable answers.

I long ago ceased to imagine that there would ever be a consensus on some of these thing, though I had never delved into all the various ways the engineering systems were referenced and that is even more confusing that settling on the length of the ship and how many decks it has. And my project is not just one ship. I am trying to work out the systems of 5 ships simultaniously (TOS Ent, TMP Ent, TFF/TUC Ent, TSFS Excelsior, and Ent B). So I'm looking across a span time (3 years our time, 100 years Trek time) to fill in the gaps and produced somthing logical and functional. I've only glanced at the NX-01 design and left it alone as it is an older system. They only thing I took from it was the horizontal nature of the warp core (which seems to be supported by That Which Survives). So many of the creative drawings of the TOS Enterprise internal systems fail when you run them through the gauntlet of what we see on screen. Even Doug Drexler's drawings for In A Mirror Darkly don't line up with what we see in the show (he has the pipe cathedral as part of the warp drive with the pipes angled the other way and butting up to the hangar). So even in that last appearance of the TOS design we have some further differences. They also gave us some additional sets, which no one in this thread seems to be using (including myself).

I'm hoping in this thread we can continue to whittle down the number of possibilities to something reasonable that can inform the projects we are working on. My drawings are mostly of the equipment, not the function, so I hope my drawings will be like the TOS Enterprise - adaptable to many theories.

Now that I see your diagram it looks very consistent. I like the modified engine rooms to fit two ways.

"The Klingons control deck 6 and starboard Deck 7..." Your Deck 6 engine room might work to resolve the problem. The engine room could be on Deck 6, and then the Klingons control the area below that. (Maybe the ladder area where the Klingons enter in that episode should not be treated a whole second level, just as an access.)

My one question is this: If the shuttlebay is able to fit behind the pylons as you suggest, why do you not have the pipes at the base of the nacelles as Drexler did, distributing power up and down as well as elsewhere?

(They aren't really the wrong way on his diagram. The pipes cross above the visible part of the set, and then function as power transfer conduits that connect to the nacelles.)

Also, the basic drawing is from Matt Jefferies, and he's on record as stating that he wanted the engine room to be in the secondary hull,

Matt Jefferies is on the record in an issue of Star Trek the Magazine as saying he did not want an engineering room at all, having already built outboard engine pods!!! Hard to accept, especially given the set and how complicated it looks, but it was Roddenberry who forced the set to be created by Jefferies, for story purposes. As such, that might affect the way in which artistic intent is measured by each of you. I'll review the article sometime and give more details.

Or maybe the six drawers are for as many as twelve different kinds of crystals; panels, points, rocks, etc etc.?

Wow. That is an interesting idea. It could explain how the crystals work for different purposes.

 

[yotsuya]

Okay, well in that case, there is no necessity, perceived or otherwise, to put anything anywhere, however the aforementioned line in "TUC" does imply a close association between the impulse engines and the "Engineering Section" which, let's remember, should not to be misconstrued as a reference to the secondary, or engineering Hull.

...

First of all, I never said there were no discrepancies between TMOST and TOS, in fact, I said that "TMOST's deck by deck description is far more consistent with the show than it is inconsistent" which acknowledges there are discrepancies. And yes, the sickbay on deck 7 instead of 5 is one of those discrepancies, but you should have used the deck 5 SB reference from "Amok Time" -which came before TMOST was available to reference- to better make your point, because the "EOT" reference comes after info in TMOST was available to the writing staff (in the writers guide by this time?), so in this case, it's actually the show that is inconsistent with the TMOST rather than the other way around, which just goes to show what I've said all along, that the writing staff was more interested in a good story than in technical throwaway lines.

The "outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage" is a reference to the area surrounding the central "most protected part" of the ship (EOT) where the "undercut" on the bottom side of the saucer rises up and prevents full deck height and thus the perfect place for a "complex of water and other bulk storage", it is not a reference to the outermost edge or rim of the saucer, and so in no way does it contradict an engineering area in the impulse deck.

First of all, I was only talking about the "TMOST's deck by deck description", being used most of the time (during the second season), I never said anything about the cross section, precisely because it does not match the deck by deck description and because we have no evidence that the writing staff used it as a reference. And as for it being "apparent" that the cutaway shows where "they" wanted the engineering section to be is, quite frankly, balderdash. I'm not sure what that area is suppose to be, and neither is anybody else, but the very fact that it extends down into the 'too narrow' dorsal, as you point out, rules out the notion that it could/should be the engineering section mentioned in the text as being in the same location as the impulse engines. Also, the basic drawing is from Matt Jefferies, and he's on record as stating that he wanted the engine room to be in the secondary hull, so he never would have been so feeble minded as to place it in the dorsal, where it obviously would not fit. Incidentally, this is likely what led to the inconstancy in "DOTD" over the location of engineering, the writing staff was going by deck info consistent with TMOST, whereas MJ had his own ideas, which he communicated to the FX people. The same goes for the 11 decks in the deck by deck description vs the 7 or 8 decks in the cutaway, one is based on Jefferies deck levels, the other is not.

...

The very shape of the ship precludes engineering on Deck 7. The ship would have to be 1.5 times the standard size of 947 feet long in order to fit a deck across the curve under the saucer to fit the set an any access corridors to it. And if you enlarge it that much it probably wouldn't be deck 7 any longer. And TMoST never says deck 7, it says at the aft end of the saucer, which could be deck 6 (in the given 11 deck saucer configuration) or a room we never see that fits in the limits of the ship). And following TMoST, saucer separation is a given and so main power would be channeled through a single point into the saucer (for phasers, shields, etc.) that could be disconnected (and maybe reconnected) and you would need an engineering control center for when the saucer has to operate separately and on its own independent power. But the fun thing about Jefferies cross section is that is agrees on 16 decks in the secondary hull. His central deck is double high and could count as two decks, especially when you stick the second/third season engine room in there (with its two mid height deck sections).

And I don't really see any deck consistency that matches TMoST until you get to TMP. Most of the key locations in the TMP refit Enterprise follow TMoST (except deck 8). The series was all over the place and nothing is certain. Just this thread in 39 pages has proven that there are so many variables that each of us has to find what works for us. You can't say that the M/AM reactors must be in the Nacelles when That Which Survives directly contradicts that by putting one in the secondary hull. And that system is the basis for where they took the TMP system so it is the one that carries the most weight with me. It all depends on which episodes carry the most weight with you and they aren't going to be the same for everyone. I brought up TWS and there was an instant reaction that it was season three and written by JML so was in doubt. I don't see it that way so that episode is key in how I see the ship's systems while others ignore it.

 

[yotsuya]

Now that I see your diagram it looks very consistent. I like the modified engine rooms to fit two ways.

The secondary hull engine room exactly matches the season 2/3 set (except for expanding the pipe structure).

"The Klingons control deck 6 and starboard Deck 7..." Your Deck 6 engine room might work to resolve the problem. The engine room could be on Deck 6, and then the Klingons control the area below that. (Maybe the ladder area where the Klingons enter in that episode should not be treated a whole second level, just as an access.)

My one question is this: If the shuttlebay is able to fit behind the pylons as you suggest, why do you not have the pipes at the base of the nacelles as Drexler did, distributing power up and down as well as elsewhere?

(They aren't really the wrong way on his diagram. The pipes cross above the visible part of the set, and then function as power transfer conduits that connect to the nacelles.)

In Journey to Babel we see into the shuttle bay with a blank wall behind and have a corridor coming off of it. They only place that works in my layout is in front of the shuttlebay so nothing else can go there. Plus, In Jefferies cross section he has a vertical structure a bit forward of the pylons that is not found in the Engineering set so I placed the engineering set and pipes in front of that and made that the vertical (really a vertical and cross piece like a T) the main flow of plasma heading to the warp nacelles (where the warp coils are). The intermix chamber is under main engineering with the anti-matter storied in a unit that can be removed for service or refueling an or jettisoned should the need arise. The pipes (as we see in a couple of the episodes) are tied into converting that warp plasma into usable power for the ship. So what I came up with is completely different from Drexler and I don't have 4 separate conduits going up the pylons, only one. His design is completely at odds with NX-01 and the 1701 Refit designs so I ignored it.

I'm looking at all the other ships having warp coils and a warp core (even NX-01) and TWS strongly hints at that very system in the TOS Enterprise. I see no reason to contradict what the rest of Trek has done, especially when one of my main goals is to line up the original and refits so see what carried over (the purple section in this drawing)

In this design the M/AM reactor is at the base of the vertical shaft (not at the junction like in TNG).

 

[Mres_was_framed!]

In Journey to Babel we see into the shuttle bay with a blank wall behind and have a corridor coming off of it. They only place that works in my layout is in front of the shuttlebay so nothing else can go there. Plus, In Jefferies cross section he has a vertical structure a bit forward of the pylons that is not found in the Engineering set so I placed the engineering set and pipes in front of that and made that the vertical (really a vertical and cross piece like a T) the main flow of plasma heading to the warp nacelles (where the warp coils are). The intermix chamber is under main engineering with the anti-matter storied in a unit that can be removed for service or refueling an or jettisoned should the need arise. The pipes (as we see in a couple of the episodes) are tied into converting that warp plasma into usable power for the ship. So what I came up with is completely different from Drexler and I don't have 4 separate conduits going up the pylons, only one. His design is completely at odds with NX-01 and the 1701 Refit designs so I ignored it.

Got it. That makes sense to me. I see you highlighted the TOS ship in purple showing a potential refit expansion, and I dig it Can you do the reverse, making the refit fit inside the TOS version, and see how rooms and power flow line up?

The reason I ask is that you are looking to compare different versions of the Enterprise, and dialogue and lighting/ filming choices in STIV, V, and VI lead me to believe that at least the "A" version of the refit is smaller, even though it looks largely the same, owing to being the same model.

 

[blssdwlf]

Okay, well in that case, there is no necessity, perceived or otherwise, to put anything anywhere, however the aforementioned line in "TUC" does imply a close association between the impulse engines and the "Engineering Section" which, let's remember, should not to be misconstrued as a reference to the secondary, or engineering Hull.

Agreed.

Fair enough, as I said his gesture isn't very specific so it boils down to interpretation as to where hes pointing to, but what's not really open to interpretation is that the warp drive engines he's referring to, as well as the associated M/A-M fuel, are in the nacelles/pods. However, since the dilithium is seen to be accessed from engineering, it opens up the possibility that parts of the overall engine or propulsion system are spread out around the ship. And you've got a good point regarding Scotty about to go into problems with the circuits, so maybe he was actually pointing to the triangular doohickey in the middle of the floor, which might be the dilithium crystal converter assembly itself.

The way he motions his hand it could be everything immediately around him which would include circuits and such. But now seeing that the S2 DTD never had a popup crystal holder and instead sported the black heat sink I'm not so sure that the S2 Engine Rooms ever held a crystal and it wasn't until S3 where the engine rooms were updated with the new crystal-version DTDs.

First of all, I never said there were no discrepancies between TMOST and TOS, in fact, I said that "TMOST's deck by deck description is far more consistent with the show than it is inconsistent" which acknowledges there are discrepancies.

I have read that book a gazillion times (probably like you have) and out of a description of 11 decks, 6 decks don't match up with the show. That's not quite "far more consistent with the show that it is inconsistent", IMO.

From TMOST (p171-192)
Deck 1: Bridge -- okay

Deck 2: "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations" "The Enterprise Incident" passenger quarters (or brig?) on Deck 2.

Deck 3: "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations" "WNMHGB" Engineering deck? (Or is it Engineering hull, deck three?) "LTBYLB": Rec Room 3. "CX": Rec Room 6 -- maybe not primarily research labs when you have rec and living quarters.

Deck 4: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks." -- mostly okay, as per "The Ultimate Computer" except for the Rec Room that cuts through this deck

Deck 5: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks. ... Captain's quarters, as well as those of Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Scotty are located on Deck 5..." "Corbomite Maneuver": has duty stations. "LTBYLB": Rec Room 3. "Elaan of Troyus" Sickbay -- not quite, Duty stations are present and Sickbay is up here along with a large Rec Room 3. Senior officer quarters at least right?

Deck 6: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks." ... -- okay, as per "The Ultimate Computer", "LTBYLB". "Return to Tomorrow" has a briefing room but that's okay.

Deck 7: "The central section of the seventh deck level includes the office of the ship's Surgeon, the entire sick bay complex, and all labs and related functions falling under the jurisdiction of the medical department. The outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage. At the very center of the seventh deck, and extending down to the eight deck is the core of the ship's main computer system, it's memory banks and primary controls." "TDM": Reports power failure of main energisers. -- Lack of mention of engineering facilities and wrong deck for sickbay.

Deck 8: "The primary hull's eighth deck level contains four major facilities: a large recreation area, the main food preparation area, ship's laundry, and a rather exotic entertainment center." "I, Mudd": Auxiliary Control. -- Missing major facility, the Aux Control. Unless it got the rec rooms flipped and they are actually on the upper decks.

Deck 9,"Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities." --No inconsistency

Deck 10: "Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities." --No inconsistency

Deck 11: "The ship's phaser banks are located on the underside of the saucer-shaped hull, and therefore deck 11 contains the ship's phaser controls and other related equipment and facilities. --Try to fit the Phaser room in that space.

Impulse engines: "The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer." Shouldn't that be a little higher up?

And yes, the sickbay on deck 7 instead of 5 is one of those discrepancies, but you should have used the deck 5 SB reference from "Amok Time" -which came before TMOST was available to reference- to better make your point, because the "EOT" reference comes after info in TMOST was available to the writing staff (in the writers guide by this time?),

So what does that mean, TMOST got it wrong both before and after printing?

so in this case, it's actually the show that is inconsistent with the TMOST rather than the other way around, which just goes to show what I've said all along, that the writing staff was more interested in a good story than in technical throwaway lines.

Well, yeah, if your primary source is TMOST then everything else that doesn't match is just inconsistent. But if your primary source is the show then everything else that doesn't match in TMOST is inconsistent. Just depends on which perspective you want to take.

The "outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage" is a reference to the area surrounding the central "most protected part" of the ship (EOT) where the "undercut" on the bottom side of the saucer rises up and prevents full deck height and thus the perfect place for a "complex of water and other bulk storage", it is not a reference to the outermost edge or rim of the saucer, and so in no way does it contradict an engineering area in the impulse deck.

Can you quote me in the book anywhere it says Deck 7 contains engineering facilities or even the impulse deck?

First of all, I was only talking about the "TMOST's deck by deck description", being used most of the time (during the second season), I never said anything about the cross section, precisely because it does not match the deck by deck description and because we have no evidence that the writing staff used it as a reference.

Ah, I missed where you were excluding the other parts of the book. So should we just speak of TMOST with an asterisk?

And as for it being "apparent" that the cutaway shows where "they" wanted the engineering section to be is, quite frankly, balderdash.

Page 171 as per the book description: "The impulse engine section is located at the bottom rear end of the saucer."
The cross section happens to have a 2 story area at the bottom rear end of the saucer. But since you are saying the cross section is excluded from the discussion I'll drop the cross section out after this post unless it's brought up again.

I'm not sure what that area is suppose to be, and neither is anybody else, but the very fact that it extends down into the 'too narrow' dorsal, as you point out, rules out the notion that it could/should be the engineering section mentioned in the text as being in the same location as the impulse engines. Also, the basic drawing is from Matt Jefferies, and he's on record as stating that he wanted the engine room to be in the secondary hull, so he never would have been so feeble minded as to place it in the dorsal, where it obviously would not fit.

Ok, uhm, does MJ state that in TMOST or is it in another book or interview? Trying to keep all the sources straight.

Well, what's your solution to the mystery?

The simple solution, 4 crystals blew equal 4 replacements plus 2 spares.
Alternate solution, the Enterprise was running only at 2/3rd max power as it was missing 2 crystals to start with.

And I wonder if two of the crystals are rock-like and four are panel-like? Or maybe the six drawers are for as many as twelve different kinds of crystals; panels, points, rocks, etc etc.?

Without seeing the other drawers open it's anyone's guess. A pair of paddles equal one crystal? A drawer equals one or two circuits? Lots of possibilities.

You're missing my point, the lack of noticeable power effects isn't the main issue, the point is we are told that almost all of their crystals were drained and we see only four, both in the re-amp drawers and in possession by each Lazarus, so this fits with six crystal total which fits with Kirk's line from "MW". Also, we don't know enough about the whole system to be dogmatic about it, it may be that the converter assembly "converts" energy/power from one type of crystal to anther, say from rock-like to panel-like and vice versa? It could be that the engine nacelles (and associated reactors?) use one type of (rock-like?) crystal and the rest of the ship's systems (and associated reactor?) are powered by another (panel-like?) crystal?

LOL, the "no noticeable effect" distracted me. But, I see what you mean now. Yes, from the dialogue it implies that not all crystals were drained so I would agree that there are probably more than 4 crystals in play in TAF. I would imagine with 6 drawers (one per lithium circuit) that is a possible 2 paddles each (or one crystal each) for a total of 12 paddles or 6 crystals.

MASTERS: Whatever that phenomenon was, it drained almost all of our crystals completely. It could mean trouble.​

 

[yotsuya]

Got it. That makes sense to me. I see you highlighted the TOS ship in purple showing a potential refit expansion, and I dig it Can you do the reverse, making the refit fit inside the TOS version, and see how rooms and power flow line up?

The reason I ask is that you are looking to compare different versions of the Enterprise, and dialogue and lighting/ filming choices in STIV, V, and VI lead me to believe that at least the "A" version of the refit is smaller, even though it looks largely the same, owing to being the same model.

I would have to work up some plan for the TOS Enterprise that was bigger or one of the refit that was smaller and the decks would have to line up. That purple area represents weeks or work and only came to be when I included the matte painting of Kirk looking down the core to the bottom. The number of decks wasn't lining up with the number of decks according to the windows, but when I added an extra deck to match the painting, I was able to line the decks up with the TOS decks and get a match. That is more work than I am willing to do for a theory that I don't agree with. I see nothing in any of the films to indicate the Refit or 1701-A is smaller than the TOS Enterprise.

 

[Henoch]

I would imagine with 6 drawers (one per lithium circuit) that is a possible 2 paddles each (or one crystal each) for a total of 12 paddles or 6 crystals.

I don't think two paddles = one crystal, rather one paddle is one crystal. Kirk refers to the two stolen paddles as crystals, plural, not crystal, singular. You could say that two paddle crystals make up one crystal "circuit", but I think this is even stretching it, and besides, there no on-screen dialog to back this up.

In my head canon, lithium crystals are natural crystals with some lesser percentage of dilithium in them. High grade natural crystals are called dilithium crystals if the percentage of dilithium is higher than the lithium in them. The paddle crystals are a refined or enriched version of the natural lithium crystals in which the dilithium is separated from the lithium ore (hence "lithium cracking station" for ore production), and sintered into the paddle shape for general use in starships.

 

[TIN_MAN]

Matt Jefferies is on the record in an issue of Star Trek the Magazine as saying he did not want an engineering room at all, having already built outboard engine pods!!! Hard to accept, especially given the set and how complicated it looks, but it was Roddenberry who forced the set to be created by Jefferies, for story purposes. As such, that might affect the way in which artistic intent is measured by each of you. I'll review the article sometime and give more details.

This is true, and it's not hard to accept at all, and you needn't bother looking it up, I believe it can be found at Memory Alpha.

The 'on record' I was referring to was an interview conducted by Doug Drexler, who asked Jefferies point blank where the engine room was, and Jefferies replied "In the Secondary Hull, of course" or words to that effect. This has been discussed on these forums before and it's not exactly esoteric knowledge.

So there's no contradiction between what I wrote and what you wrote, it's just that Jefferies eventually accepted the engine room and both his TMOST cross section and his Phase II cross section show where he wanted to be, with the Phase II cross section actually labeling it as such.

 

[TIN_MAN]

The very shape of the ship precludes engineering on Deck 7. The ship would have to be 1.5 times the standard size of 947 feet long in order to fit a deck across the curve under the saucer to fit the set an any access corridors to it.

So you keep saying. And I get what your saying, I got it the first 3 or 4 times you said it. But you've ignored or forgotten what I said about combining different versions of the filming models and that a radial corridor will fit along the axis of the dorsal, where the undercut curve is not an issue. If you don't want an engine room there, that's fine with me, you obviously feel strongly about this, but to me it's not that big a deal, so you do what you want and I'll do what I want, and we'll just agree to disagree.

And TMoST never says deck 7, it says at the aft end of the saucer, which could be deck 6 (in the given 11 deck saucer configuration) or a room we never see that fits in the limits of the ship).

All very true. This is where combining different sources that agree, or at least, don't disagree, comes into play to help us work out the most likely scenario. In fact, if we put a (more or less) two story engine room in the impulse deck it would span decks 6 and 7, so it would actually be on both decks at the same time.

You can't say that the M/AM reactors must be in the Nacelles when That Which Survives directly contradicts that by putting one in the secondary hull.

First of all, I never said reactors must be in the nacelles, and/or only in the nacelles. And besides, It's not me saying that, it's TOS or more specifically, "By Any Other Name";

SPOCK: "There is one other possibility, Mister Scott. The final decision, of course, must be the captain's, but I believe we must have it ready for him. The Enterprise is propelled by matter-anti-matter reactors. The barrier we must traverse is negative energy."

and later,

SPOCK: "Mister Scott and I have prepared the means for the only logical alternative available to us."

KIRK: "What alternative?"

SPOCK: "The barrier we must penetrate is composed of negative energy."

SCOTT: "I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy."

This exchange is strong evidence that there are M/A-M reactors in the nacelles, you can ignore if you wish, or try to hand wave it away, that is your right, but it is also equally my right to use it if I so choose, and not you or anybody else gets to tell me I "can't" use it to say there are M/A-M reactors in the nacelles. There are also other corroboratory references in TOS, and the writers guide, if you care to look for them.

Oh, and by the way, TWS doesn't say "the" reactor is in the secondary hull, that's just an assumption on your part, it could be in the Impulse deck for all any of us know.

It all depends on which episodes carry the most weight with you and they aren't going to be the same for everyone.

Agreed, Have I ever indicated I thought otherwise?

I brought up TWS and there was an instant reaction that it was season three and written by JML so was in doubt. I don't see it that way so that episode is key in how I see the ship's systems while others ignore it.

It was just a simple observation of fact, from which I drew conclusions that I shared in the hopes of contributing something useful to the conversation; and for you or anyone else to make of what they will. And I never pushed the issue the way you've been pushing the "engine room can't fit in the saucer rim" or told you that you "can't" use the "TWS" evidence because it contradicts "BAON". I accept that you see things differently, why can't you do the same for me?

 

[yotsuya]

It would be interesting to read that Star Trek Magazine interview. But he is on record elsewhere indicating that he made the Enterprise with a smooth hull so that everything could be accessed from the inside which is kind of at odds with that. I would guess that he didn't want an engine room and in that we never really get one because on all the ships the systems are spread out and while we do have the pipe cathedral in TOS and a warp core in all the other versions, those are just accessories to the actual engines. What we have in main engineering is a control room where the ship's power systems are cared for. But also, in his cross section, he put an access tube and a room in the warp nacelles. So he did not rule out the possibility of the need to directly access the interior of the nacelles. And we know that the Enterprise went through many design iterations and it would be nice to have his comments in context of when in the design process he had that thought.

 

[yotsuya]

So you keep saying. And I get what your saying, I got it the first 3 or 4 times you said it. But you've ignored or forgotten what I said about combining different versions of the filming models and that a radial corridor will fit along the axis of the dorsal, where the undercut curve is not an issue. If you don't want an engine room there, that's fine with me, you obviously feel strongly about this, but to me it's not that big a deal, so you do what you want and I'll do what I want, and we'll just agree to disagree.
All very true. This is where combining different sources that agree, or at least, don't disagree, comes into play to help us work out the most likely scenario. In fact, if we put a (more or less) two story engine room in the impulse deck it would span decks 6 and 7, so it would actually be on both decks at the same time.

It is possible to squeeze the Season 1 main engineering into that area, but the corridor doesn't line up. Perhaps an acceptable tweak for some. But the deck level would be deck 6.5. There is no way to cram the season 2/3 main engineering in that space. There just isn't room unless the ship is much bigger. At 947 feet long, the neck is wide enough for the room, but there is no room for the cross corridor (straight or arcing) due to the undercut. You have to substantially increase the size of the ship, especially if you want to keep the 10 foot set height, to get the room to put the season 2/3 main engineering there. Again, it is the cross corridor that gets in the way, but that is a key feature of just about every scene outside of main engineering. I'm not saying you can't put it there, but at 947 or even 1080 feet long, the cross corridor makes it impossible without substantialy changing what we see on screen. I'm more than willing to change the arc of the corridor to be anywhere from stright to a very tight curve, but eliminating it is more than I'm willing to do just to stick a room in a place where it is never absolutely placed in the series. I think a room is needed so I place the season 1 room with a slightly shorter ceiling on deck 6 and everything we see on screen remains (mostly) accurate. I'm trying to stick to the exact room set plans with adjusted corridors to fit that part of the ship and lower ceilings (none of the Federation species seen in Star Trek is over 6 foot so 10 foot ceilings is a lot of wasted volume that I can't justify, especially when the camera doesn't often capture the top parts of the sets).

First of all, I never said reactors must be in the nacelles, and/or only in the nacelles. And besides, It's not me saying that, it's TOS or more specifically, "By Any Other Name";

SPOCK: "There is one other possibility, Mister Scott. The final decision, of course, must be the captain's, but I believe we must have it ready for him. The Enterprise is propelled by matter-anti-matter reactors. The barrier we must traverse is negative energy."

and later,

SPOCK: "Mister Scott and I have prepared the means for the only logical alternative available to us."

KIRK: "What alternative?"

SPOCK: "The barrier we must penetrate is composed of negative energy."

SCOTT: "I have opened the control valves to the matter-anti-matter nacelles. On your signal, I will flood them with positive energy."

This exchange is strong evidence that there are M/A-M reactors in the nacelles, you can ignore if you wish, or try to hand wave it away, that is your right, but it is also equally my right to use it if I so choose, and not you or anybody else gets to tell me I "can't" use it to say there are M/A-M reactors in the nacelles. There are also other corroboratory references in TOS, and the writers guide, if you care to look for them.

Oh, and by the way, TWS doesn't say "the" reactor is in the secondary hull, that's just an assumption on your part, it could be in the Impulse deck for all any of us know.
Agreed, Have I ever indicated I thought otherwise?
It was just a simple observation of fact, from which I drew conclusions that I shared in the hopes of contributing something useful to the conversation; and for you or anyone else to make of what they will. And I never pushed the issue the way you've been pushing the "engine room can't fit in the saucer rim" or told you that you "can't" use the "TWS" evidence because it contradicts "BAON". I accept that you see things differently, why can't you do the same for me?

I've previously commented that while I am a proponent of a single M/AM reactor, I can see where that could be a pre-reaction that pumps a heated plasma into the warp nacelles for a final reaction that produces the warp field. And only some of Wesley Crusher's dialog in TNG ever contradicts that, but they never refer to the nacelles as matter or anti-matter ever again. I am a fan of the larger (pre-JJ) canon which has a single reaction and sends plasma to the warp coils. I seem to be a minority in that around here, but that's fine. The discussion is fascinating all the same.

 

[Ronald Held]

Does the Enterprise use at least ONE M/AM reactor with Dilithium, which creates a warp plasma used to power the warp coils in the nacelles?

 

[blssdwlf]

I don't think two paddles = one crystal, rather one paddle is one crystal. Kirk refers to the two stolen paddles as crystals, plural, not crystal, singular. You could say that two paddle crystals make up one crystal "circuit", but I think this is even stretching it, and besides, there no on-screen dialog to back this up.

Yeah, that's one way of looking at it. I was following TIN_MAN's train of thought that there were 6 crystal circuits dating back to "Mudd's Women". Assuming the number of crystal circuits remained the same then each drawer would represent a single circuit. If one crystal-shaped crystal worked for a single circuit then two paddle-shaped crystals could be it's equivalent. Of course, YMMV.

In my head canon, lithium crystals are natural crystals with some lesser percentage of dilithium in them. High grade natural crystals are called dilithium crystals if the percentage of dilithium is higher than the lithium in them. The paddle crystals are a refined or enriched version of the natural lithium crystals in which the dilithium is separated from the lithium ore (hence "lithium cracking station" for ore production), and sintered into the paddle shape for general use in starships.

And then later on we find dilithium crystals from "Elaan of Troyus". Yeah, it could work.

Does the Enterprise use at least ONE M/AM reactor with Dilithium, which creates a warp plasma used to power the warp coils in the nacelles?

For TOS? Not in dialogue or on screen. Dilithium is like your Lithium Ion battery in a laptop and the M/AM is the electricity from a nuclear power plant that is transformed down into your outlet in TOS.

In TNG, Dilithium is like the control rods in a nuclear reactor and the warp plasma is the superheated steam that turns the electricity turbines.

 

[yotsuya]

Does the Enterprise use at least ONE M/AM reactor with Dilithium, which creates a warp plasma used to power the warp coils in the nacelles?

Neither the TOS or TMP refit 1701 has a M/AM reactor that works that way. The dilithium crystals are used to convert energy from the M/AM reaction into power for the ship. TOS was pretty consistent about that and TWOK carried through with that idea. Sometime between then and TNG, the warp core design changed to include a dilithium crystal at the core of the M/AM reactor. It might be linked to the new warp scale. Since they used the TNG warp core in ST VI and that ship reportedly was one of the transwarp experimental ships it could start as early as that, but there is no clear information on that. All the dilithium crystals seen in TOS were linked to the power system not the M/AM reactor.

 

[Henoch]

Neither the TOS or TMP refit 1701 has a M/AM reactor that works that way. The dilithium crystals are used to convert energy from the M/AM reaction into power for the ship. TOS was pretty consistent about that and TWOK carried through with that idea. Sometime between then and TNG, the warp core design changed to include a dilithium crystal at the core of the M/AM reactor. It might be linked to the new warp scale. Since they used the TNG warp core in ST VI and that ship reportedly was one of the transwarp experimental ships it could start as early as that, but there is no clear information on that. All the dilithium crystals seen in TOS were linked to the power system not the M/AM reactor.

I did a search on all references to lithium/dilithium crystal in TOS, and all results primarily involve dialog on ship power generation. Indirect effects did involve losing/regaining warp propulsion (WNMHGB?, MW, TPS?, EOT, maybe others).

 

[Ronald Held]

Neither the TOS or TMP refit 1701 has a M/AM reactor that works that way. The dilithium crystals are used to convert energy from the M/AM reaction into power for the ship. TOS was pretty consistent about that and TWOK carried through with that idea. Sometime between then and TNG, the warp core design changed to include a dilithium crystal at the core of the M/AM reactor. It might be linked to the new warp scale. Since they used the TNG warp core in ST VI and that ship reportedly was one of the transwarp experimental ships it could start as early as that, but there is no clear information on that. All the dilithium crystals seen in TOS were linked to the power system not the M/AM reactor.

In ENT,wasn't there a M/AM reactor using Dilithium?

 

[TIN_MAN]

I have read that book a gazillion times (probably like you have) and out of a description of 11 decks, 6 decks don't match up with the show. That's not quite "far more consistent with the show that it is inconsistent", IMO.

Well obviously, I don't see it that way. And while the use of "far" more consistent may have been a bit of hyperbole on my part, I stand by my original statement.

I don't usually get as pedantic about these things as you do (there's that word again) but I think I can make an exception in this case.

So before we begin, let's remember a few things;

1st; TMOST can't fairly be expected to agree with any episode (mostly from the first season) written before it, itself, was written and was available as a reference source for the writing staff, so any such deck references shouldn't really count, or at least, not hold as much weight. It was mostly during second production season that Whitfield interviewed the writing staff and and the deck by deck description was written up and it was fresh in everyone's mind. The same goes for the 3rd season to a certain extent, by then most of the show runners had left or were leaving, and judging from the scripts/episodes, not much care was given to deck reference continuity, at least not in regards info from TMOST/writers guide.

And 2nd; that there is consistency, inconsistency, and then there's not inconstant! And of course, we're both gonna have differing interpretations of the available factoids, so that's inevitable. I tend to see TMOST as a glass half full, whereas you tend to see it as a glass half empty, or should that be a glass 2/3rds full vs 2/3rds empty?

Deck 2: "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations" "The Enterprise Incident" passenger quarters (or brig?) on Deck 2.

"Primarily" does mean that there are other things besides those specifically mentioned, does it not? And the reference from "The Enterprise Incident" is not to "passenger" or "guest" quarters, either of which might indicate more than one, but to "her quarters" instead, and since "quarters" is spelled and spoken the same way whether singular or plural, we have no reason to assume that there is more than one. If you want to assume there is, that's fine for you, but I choose to assume that there is only one, and that it is the same as Pike's old quarters, thus justifying it's otherwise odd location. So I'm going to call this this one "not inconsistent".

Deck 3: "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations" "WNMHGB" Engineering deck? (Or is it Engineering hull, deck three?) "LTBYLB": Rec Room 3. "CX": Rec Room 6 -- maybe not primarily research labs when you have rec and living quarters.

Once again "primarily" allows for some other things besides those specifically mentioned. The "WNMHGB" Engineering deck? 1st, this is an example of TOS being inconsistent with itself, where "engineering" is variously located on decks 3, 5, 7 (possibly), 14, and "B" deck; so those that live in glass houses etc.etc. But I think this deck 3 engineering might be a lab or something, so it could fall under "work areas for various technicians". And as for rec rooms 3 and 6? again an inconsistency in TOS, but one that is fairly easy to reconcile, but does this mean there are two rec rooms or six or more? either way we have to make some assumptions, so I'm going to assume there are just the two and they are there mostly for the use of the lab rats and technicians that work on decks 2 and 3 when they take their coffee/lunch breaks and/or to double as briefing rooms to brainstorm solutions to the threat of the the week. So, I'm gonna call this one a "not inconsistent".

Deck 4: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks." -- mostly okay, as per "The Ultimate Computer" except for the Rec Room that cuts through this deck

We don't know there is a rec room cutting through the deck, that's an interpretation/assumption on your part, but even if it does, this still qualifies as the first solid win for me, so I'm calling this one CONSISTENT. Also, consider that "TUC" is also the episode that most closely associates the Engineering Section with the Impulse deck, so both taken together, this suggests that the script writer(s) were using info that would later be included in TMOST as a reference source.

Deck 5: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks. ... Captain's quarters, as well as those of Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Scotty are located on Deck 5..." "Corbomite Maneuver": has duty stations. "LTBYLB": Rec Room 3. "Elaan of Troyus" Sickbay -- not quite, Duty stations are present and Sickbay is up here along with a large Rec Room 3. Senior officer quarters at least right?

I've already conceded this one concerning sickbay, but what's this about duty stations from "TCM"" maybe I missed that one, unless your referring to the deck 5 engineering? But no matter, this deck is already inconsistent so that's that. Consider the senior officers quarters though, these are "right" (three episodes worth) most likely because the writing staff was aware of, and using as a reference, the deck by deck info that was later included in TMOST.

Deck 6: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks." ... -- okay, as per "The Ultimate Computer", "LTBYLB". "Return to Tomorrow" has a briefing room but that's okay.

Agreed, I don't consider briefing rooms as "duty stations", and again evidence that info later included in TMOST is being referenced. So another solid win for me.

Deck 7: "The central section of the seventh deck level includes the office of the ship's Surgeon, the entire sick bay complex, and all labs and related functions falling under the jurisdiction of the medical department. The outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage. At the very center of the seventh deck, and extending down to the eight deck is the core of the ship's main computer system, it's memory banks and primary controls." "TDM": Reports power failure of main energisers. -- Lack of mention of engineering facilities and wrong deck for sickbay.

Well, whether there's a lack of mention of an engineering deck is quite the crucial issue, and the one we've been debating, but in the interest of brevity, I won't go into it again right here. Not sure if we should include the sickbay issue twice, but I'm feeling pretty good about how things are stacking up, so I'll let you have this one and call it "Inconsistent".

Deck 8: "The primary hull's eighth deck level contains four major facilities: a large recreation area, the main food preparation area, ship's laundry, and a rather exotic entertainment center." "I, Mudd": Auxiliary Control. -- Missing major facility, the Aux Control. Unless it got the rec rooms flipped and they are actually on the upper decks.

I think the Auxiliary Control might be in the center-most section of this deck, and thus part of the library computer complex extending down from the deck above, this is consistent with how the "AC" was used in "The Way to Eden" where research involving the ships records was conducted. this would also be a good protected place for an auxiliary control. So all in all, I'm calling this one another "not inconsistent"

Deck 9,"Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities." --No inconsistency

Deck 10: "Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities." --No inconsistency

Agreed.

Deck 11: "The ship's phaser banks are located on the underside of the saucer-shaped hull, and therefore deck 11 contains the ship's phaser controls and other related equipment and facilities. --Try to fit the Phaser room in that space.

There you go going all thermion on me again. I think it'll fit just fine. remember this set was a redress of the engineering set, so we don't know what MJ might have done if he could have built a set fro scratch, probably something like the auxiliary control room? anyway this is another "not inconsistent".

So, let's see; we have bridge -consistent, deck 2 -not inconsistent, deck 3 -iffy but not inconsistent, deck 4 -consistent, deck 5 -inconsistent, deck 6 -consistent, deck 7 inconsistent, deck 8 -not inconsistent, decks 9 and 10 -not inconsistent, and deck 11 -not inconsistent.

So we have three decks consistent, six deck not-inconsistent, and only two decks inconsistent. So that's arguably only two decks flat-out inconsistent out of eleven decks total. So even if we throw in the iffy deck three as inconsistent, I think that pretty much justifies my use of "far more" consistent (or at least not inconsistent) than inconsistent.

That's all the time I have for today folks, I'll comment on some other points tomorrow when I have some more time.