Engine Room(s) on the TOS Enterprise (revisited)

Discussion in 'Star Trek - The Original & Animated Series' started by Henoch, Jan 25, 2019.

  1. yotsuya

    yotsuya Captain Captain

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    The way I take those in light of the many instances of dilithium involved in power generation is that the warp drive requires power to run the system in addition to anything else. Like in all our gasoline powered cars, without the electric system the car does not run, even with a full tank of gas. So if the power generation system on the Enterprise goes down, it doesn't matter if the M/AM system is working perfectly, the warp drive goes down.
     
  2. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I can't help feeling that there is some miscommunication going on here, so I have mocked up 2 examples based on your excellent cutaway:

    The first is a full height Engine Room situated towards the rear of the saucer. As previously noted, this creates issues with a connecting curved corridor.
    [​IMG]

    The second is a full height Engine Room situated more towards the core of the saucer. There is now plenty of room for corridor access.
    [​IMG]

    Hopefully we are now all on the same page :techman:
     
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  3. yotsuya

    yotsuya Captain Captain

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    Very niece except the question was specifically about placing the engine room on the rim. In profile the season 1 engine room is 24 feet long and 17 to 18 feet tall. The season 2/3 engine room is 20 feet long and 20 feet tall. The season 1 engine room could fit in there at a half deck and still have room for a cross corridor. The larger you make the ship the easier it fits. There was never any question about the engine room fitting toward the core of the saucer. I used the raised structure on the top to add a couple of feet to the room height (so I didn't have to cut it down as much and still give Kirk room to be on top of the blocky unit). I'm still thinking about lowering it to a partial deck height since it is the one set we do see the ceiling of.
     
  4. blssdwlf

    blssdwlf Commodore Commodore

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    So you're basically saying TMOST can't be held to what happened in Season 1 and was not adhered to much in Season 3. That in itself changes how I was comparing TMOST to the on screen information as I was giving TMOST too much weight.

    Well before your stipulations about TMOST not being accurate and not being carefully adhered to, I was comparing based on whether an episode disagreed with the text description given in the book. Since you added a new value, "not inconstant" I shall add, "not corroborated" to the comparison. Since you're stating that TMOST is starting off not being accurate then to count it consistent is to compare it as whether it can be corroborated that such facility exists on screen.

    Since according to you TMOST has questionable information to start with I am now checking to see if we can corroborate it's description with what's in the series to see if it is consistent with it. I can't find any evidence of research labs located on Deck 2. Can you?

    Deck 2 is written as "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations". It is "not corroborated" in any episode so it is therefore inconsistent.

    It depends on who is making the glass house. It's only inconsistent if you try to force engineering into a centralized location.



    Deck 3 also is written as "Primarily research labs, work areas for various technicians, and related duty stations" and is "not corroborated" in any episode so it is therefore inconsistent.

    Deck 4: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks." - Corroborated crew quarters with "The Ultimate Computer" and therefore consistent.

    Deck 5: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks. ... Captain's quarters, as well as those of Mr. Spock, Dr. McCoy, and Scotty are located on Deck 5..."

    The Captain's quarters are corroborated in "Elaan of Troyus". However, the text specifically says there are no duty stations on these decks yet Bailey in "The Corbomite Maneuver" calls out "Engineering, deck five, report". Also, the Sickbay is on Deck 5 instead of Deck 7 as stated in TMOST. Therefore inconsistent.

    Deck 6: "Primarily crew quarters with some provision for passenger quarters. There are no duty stations on these decks."

    Corroborated in "LTBYLB" with guest quarters. Consistent.

    Deck 7: "The central section of the seventh deck level includes the office of the ship's Surgeon, the entire sick bay complex, and all labs and related functions falling under the jurisdiction of the medical department. The outer section is a "protective shell" complex of water and other bulk storage. At the very center of the seventh deck, and extending down to the eight deck is the core of the ship's main computer system, it's memory banks and primary controls."

    Can't corroborate this with any episode since the Sickbay is on Deck 5 on screen. Not only that, can't corroborate the outer shell complex of water, storage and can't corroborate where the main computer is. Therefore inconsistent.

    Deck 8: "The primary hull's eighth deck level contains four major facilities: a large recreation area, the main food preparation area, ship's laundry, and a rather exotic entertainment center."

    Can't corroborate any of the mentioned facilities to deck 8. Auxiliary Control as mentioned in "I, Mudd" is the only thing that can be found on Deck 8 so therefore inconsistent.

    Deck 9,"Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities."

    "Other miscellaneous" is broad enough to be corroborated. No inconsistency.

    Deck 10: "Primarily devoted to freight and cargo carrying space, some technicians' repair shops, and other miscellaneous activities."

    "Other miscellaneous" is broad enough to be corroborated even though Deck 10 is never mentioned. No inconsistency.

    Deck 11: "The ship's phaser banks are located on the underside of the saucer-shaped hull, and therefore deck 11 contains the ship's phaser controls and other related equipment and facilities.

    Corroborated by phasers firing from underside of saucer-shaped hull. Deck number 11 however is not corroborated but I'll give that one to you. No inconsistency.

    On a revised look, we have bridge - corroborated, deck 2 not corroborated, deck 3 not corroborated, deck 4 - corroborated, deck 5 - partially corroborated, deck 6 - corroborated, deck 7 - not corroborated, deck 8 - not corroborated, deck 9 -corroborated, deck 10 - corroborated, deck 11 - corroborated.

    Or 6 decks consistent (corroborated), 4 decks inconsistent (not corroborated) and 1 deck partially consistent. So, I still disagree that you are justified to "far more" consistent.

    Sure thing, let's see what new rules we can come up with tomorrow. :)
     
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  5. yotsuya

    yotsuya Captain Captain

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    You guys are arguing about something rather silly. How often are the decks given for the sets we see in so many episodes? Decks are mentioned in rare occasions and rarely is the same location given the same deck a second time. The deck descriptions in TMoST are neither 100% right or 100% wrong. They are a snapshot of what the production team had in mind sometime during season 2 and they are what was followed by Franz Joseph and David Kimble. The dialog doesn't prove anything other than most of the writers didn't have that deck by deck descriptions to go by and the staff writers didn't bother to correct them. It's like the time setting and so many other things that they weren't consistent on. What was consistent was the standing sets (and even there you have some frequently redressed as needed).

    For all the times we see sickbay, we have no idea what deck it may be on. Part of it depends on how many decks they were thinking. And different people on the production of a given episode might have had different ideas... if they even cared. And even how the deck was referred to might be different. Here is a picture outside sickbay where it is labeled Deck E (and yes, I know that is technically deck 5, but 5 out of how many?).
    [​IMG]

    So it isn't just the deck designation, but how many decks are imagined that dictates the location in the ship. Deck 5 out of 8 puts it in the protected core where deck 7 out of 11 also puts it. Unless we can trace back what each writer (or rewriter or set dresser) was going by in picking the deck number we have in the final product, the deck designation is rather pointless. Especially fixating that something must be on deck 5 when originally that may be 5 of 20 or 5 of 8 or something else entirely. That is why I use TMoST as a static guide. It provides a structure to place sets in the interior of the ship in a way that is not random (which is what the writer's deck designations seem to be).

    And that even some of the episodes seem to be in line with the descriptions in TMoST gives it enough weight for me call it accurate.
     
    Last edited: May 3, 2019
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  6. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Could it work the other way as well? That even some of the descriptions in TMoST seem to be in line with the filmed episodes gives them enough weight to call them accurate?
     
  7. yotsuya

    yotsuya Captain Captain

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    Well, where is the series consistency in locating any given room? A descriptive list is something solid to go by. The series doesn't have that reliable consistency. But if you prefer the little the series gives us, then that is up to you. I can only say with certainty what I find convincing.
     
  8. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    Not to muddy the water, but maybe most of those "inconsistent" facilities were physically relocated within the ship. Medical moved to Deck 5. Auxiliary Control moved to Deck 8, etc. Between Season 1 and 2, we saw the engine room ripped out and replaced. :whistle:
     
  9. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Sorry, double post.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
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  10. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Let's see now, where was I, ah yes.
    The short answer is no. The longer answer is that Whitfield was not a professional writer, and some times he doesn't express himself clearly (not unlike myself). So in order to understand what he's saying you need to imagine you are looking down on the saucer from above, with the bow at the top and the stern at the bottom rear. In other words, its not meant to be understood from a profile or cross section P.O.V..
    No, it means that the early writers guide had misleading info about the saucer having 20 decks when it actually wasn't supposed to be that big, and this led to mistakes about Kirk and Rand's quarters being on deck 12 early in the first season. So by the time TMOST was being written, this mistake was realized, and fixed, in other words, it's not Whitfield's fault that much of what came before had to be scraped. Likewise he had no control over whether future show runners maintained continuity, or not.
    That's not what I meant. As I said above, the deck by deck description was later added to the writer's guide, but they were not bound by it, and if they chose to ignore it then they, not Whitfield or his book, are to blame for the discontinuity (between the two, TOS and TMOST). And besides TMOST is not my primary source, and I never said it was.
    Not in so many words, not everything in TMOST, or in TOS for that matter, is a BONK, BONK, on the head! -this is here, and that's there, direct quote. As I tried to explain in the passage you just quoted, the "outer shell" stuff around sickbay is unique to deck 7, no other deck is described as having this feature. So the question we have to ask ourselves is, if we look at the ship's saucer from the outside and try to imagine the interior decks, what exterior feature would effect the interior spaces such that a deck would have a unique feature that no other deck has? The answer is, of course, the undercut curve on the underside of the saucer, which protrudes up into the deck, creating an "outer section" or "protective shell" composed of water and other bulk storage, around the inner section (the sickbay complex). So this tells us where deck 7 is in relation to the others, and to the saucer as a whole.
    And of course, the impulse deck is at the back (or "bottom rear" as Whitfield puts it) of the saucer section, right on the edge and spanning, or straddling, what would be deck 6 and 7.
    No, just pay attention when I write "TMOST's deck by deck description" which I specifically did
    in order to avoid anyone misinterpreting me, the way you did anyway. ;)
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
  11. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Sickbay on Deck 5, Auxiliary Control on Deck 8, Kirk's cabin consistently on Deck 5 in seasons 2-3, that kind of thing?

    Given the kind of dramatic changes that occurred to the Sickbay set after season 1, an argument could easily be made that the facility was relocated to a different part of the ship for season 2. At the very least I could say that we are seeing different rooms in a larger medical complex on board.

    Senior officer accommodation seemed to be housed on Deck 12 for at least part of season 1, maybe this is related to the renovations to Deck 5 that were not completed until season 2?
     
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  12. yotsuya

    yotsuya Captain Captain

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    Has anyone compiled a list of deck references - as in what deck, what is located there and in what episodes? I would be curious how many times sickbay is on Deck 5 and in what season.
     
  13. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    Sounds like another spreadsheet! I love spreadsheets.
     
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  14. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    I put this together a couple of years back:

    I wanted to get these out of the way because they seem to belong to the notion of the 20-deck thick saucer Enterprise (Deck 12 would be the widest part). Of special note is the fact that an Engineer would dare to be wandering around the saucer! Back to your pit, slave!!! :devil: These dialogue references cause trouble for many, since Deck 12 would be somewhere in the Pylon if the decks were counted down from the Bridge (my solution is simply to ignore the pylon, its mostly girders and support struts anyway). And speaking of oddities in terminology:

    While its possible that letters are being used to represent decks, Robert_Comsol offered a more plausible solution in the form of (B)erthing Deck (i.e. the widest part of the saucer) and (H)angar Deck. Certainly, the alphabetical system is not heard from again until the movies.

    Both these quotes might indicate an 11-deck saucer, with the first 3 decks at the top (and being smaller are more easily confirmed to be free of Mad McCoy) and some sort of anti-matter containment at the bottom (near the weapons systems, so makes sense).
    Alternatively, maybe the pylon is split up into Deck 10 & 11 and the "pods" are just the nacelles?

    If Decks 5 and 6 are the widest part of the saucer then the centre (where Sickbay is) should indeed be the safest part of the ship. It also makes sense to spread the most living quarters around in this area.

    The following dialogue is from the first episode, where a half mile long (20 deck saucer) Enterprise may still have been in mind:
    However, we then get this snippet from the Animated Series!
    There's also this commonly heard background voice:
    A lot of early dialogue referred to "decks and Engineering Levels", indicating that the secondary hull had "levels" while the term "deck" was reserved for the saucer. However, as time went on the terms became more interchangeable, especially as several episodes point to the presence of one or more Engine Rooms in the saucer as well:

    And finally:
    We don't actually see the motion lights, so Spock could well have pressed the "hold" button while he finished his conversation. There are a couple of other theories on the BBS as well that make good sense, but suffice to say that Spock's "Deck 2" isn't a deal breaker.
     
    Last edited: May 4, 2019
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  15. Harvey

    Harvey Admiral Admiral

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    This is going back a little bit in the thread, but I wanted to point out that this PDF contains the late season one version of the bible (produced in August of 1966) and the last revision of the bible (completed April to June, 1967). There's an earlier version written between March and May of 1966 that says, "The vessel (a permanent set) is starship class, has a crew complement of 430 persons, has twenty or more decks which include bridge, control rooms, crew quarters and facilities, science labs and technical departments, plus passenger and cargo accommodations."

    It looks like that language was carried over into the late season one version of the guide, and then revised a bit for the one produced during the early second season.
     
  16. Henoch

    Henoch Commodore Premium Member

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    Quickie spreadsheet on Deck information:
    https://i.ibb.co/sbRHsJz/Decks.jpg

    I did notice that Sickbay is never specifically located on Deck 5; just implied by two turbolift situations. Arguments could be made it is on another Deck (but Deck 7 is never mentioned.) 100% clear that Kirk's quarters are on Deck 5 starting in Season 2 (and maybe as early as Season 1 "Man Trap" which was production order 6 when some crewmen's quarters were put on Deck 5. The deck 12 quarters were from "Mudd's Women" production order 4 and "Enemy Within" production order 5.
     
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  17. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    Fantastic spreadsheet, thanks! Any chance of it in in a non image format? :angel:

    As regards Kirk's cabin it's quite possible that he moved from Deck 12 to Deck 5 by Man Trap. However, if we are to take the sets literally then it cannot be the same quarters as Season Two due to the change in corridor length and the open Jefferies Tube seen in Little Girls.
     
  18. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Agreed. But this does point out the irony that, had anyone on the writing staff cared to pay attention at the time, a deck six location for guest quarters would have been better to meet the dramatic necessity of the long turbo-lift ride.
    This ties in to a theory of mine, that the reason the 20 deck saucer reference got into the early writer's guide was because whoever was responsible for writing it up may have asked Matt Jefferies "how many decks does the ship have" by which they meant saucer decks, but which Jefferies understood as meaning total decks, and thus replied, "about 20", and so the other person goes back to write it up, now thinking that the saucer has 20 decks?
     
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  19. Mytran

    Mytran Rear Admiral Rear Admiral

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    That theory fits so well it's scary! Given how much the dimensions of the ship were in flux during that developmental period, some mixups were inevitable
     
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  20. TIN_MAN

    TIN_MAN Fleet Captain Fleet Captain

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    Regarding “Let That Be Your Last Battlefield”; I think there might be more than one way to interpret the dialogue and scenes during the Lokai/Bele “chase scene” at the end of this episode, which bears directly on how we interpret the deck references therein.

    When Lokai and Bele leave the bridge, we see both of them in separate turbolifts while a “double exposure” effect is used, showing scenes of burning buildings etc. For lack of a better term, hereafter I’m going to refer to this double exposure effect as an “interlude”.

    Notice that their respective turbolift rides take them from the bridge (deck 1) to deck 3, so they skipped deck 2, which could indicate that an “interlude” is for more than just dramatic purposes, but serves to imply that the characters are moving from one deck (or more) to another during the chase scenes, and to distract the viewing audience from noticing just how they accomplish this feat without ever entering another turbolift or climbing down any ladders etc.

    This is backed up by the fact that deck 4 seems to be skipped altogether, yet Lokai and Bele obviously had to pass through that deck 4 on their sprint through the ship before they could reach deck 5. But notice that there is an “interlude” both before and after Spock says “Bele is passing recreation room three, approaching the crewmen's lounge. Lokai is running past the crewmen's lounge”. This suggests that rec room 3 and the crewmen’s lounge should be interpreted as being on deck 4, not 3, as usually assumed.

    But then why did we not hear Spock say they were on deck 4? Perhaps he did, but the viewing audience was not privy to that pronouncement for whatever reason (editing?). In the same way, we were not privy to how exactly Lokai and Bele get from deck to deck without turbolifts or ladders etc.

    Then, there is another “interlude” after Spock announces “Lokai has just arrived on deck five.” But before Spock says “Passing recreation room three” suggesting that another deck has possibly been skipped and this rec room 3 -along with the transporter- is on deck 6, or maybe even 7, since we’ve seen that an “interlude” can mean passing from more than one deck at a time -as with the turbolift ride from the bridge to deck 3.

    Anyway, below is a brief rundown of how these scenes play out;

    SPOCK: Captain, I have located them on ship's sensors.

    (Interlude [in turbolifts] skips deck 2)

    Bele is chasing Lokai on deck three.

    (Interlude [to deck 4?])

    Bele is passing recreation room three, approaching the crewmen's lounge.

    Lokai is running past the crewmen's lounge.

    (Interlude)

    Lokai has just arrived on deck five.

    (Interlude, [to deck 6 or 7?])

    Passing recreation room three.

    (Lokai beams himself off the ship)

    (Interlude, [as Bele catches up])

    (Bele beams himself off the ship)
     
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