Starship design history in light of Discovery

[F. King Daniel]

Which are - you guessed it - non-canon. Eaglemoss can tell me the Runabout exists in a 200m battle-version. That won't make it true either.

The "common" given size for the Connie is simply a mistake (again - taken from an earlier draft where the ship had half the deck-count), that simply was never corrected, because no one cared enough, and it wasn't official anyway.

Since the discussion is about how reference books are to deal with this discrepancy and I cited an existing example. Clearly, they're going to keep insisting the original Enterprise is 289m.

And again, even if they were the same length, the proportions won't sync up enough for either to be a plausible refit/defit.

 

[Gonzo]

Since the discussion is about how reference books are to deal with this discrepancy and I cited an existing example. Clearly, they're going to keep insisting the original Enterprise is 289m.

And again, even if they were the same length, the proportions won't sync up enough for either to be a plausible refit/defit.

The size of the Enterprise is just a gift that keeps on giving to forum threads across time and space.

Looked fine to me in the show at around 400-500m long or so especially as the Discovery's length is 1/3 nacelle, some will never be able to deal with it.

I think it looks and ties in well with what we know of the Enterprise B, which is a similar length but much bulkier.

The Eaglemoss comparisons between ToS and DSC Enterprise must have looked pretty silly (any chance of a picture anyone?), it's no skin off my nose as I think the larger size is more realistic and everything actually fits.

For me the only Starfleet ship that looked out of place in DSC was the Shenzou.

 

[F. King Daniel]

The size of the Enterprise is just a gift that keeps on giving to forum threads across time and space.

Looked fine to me in the show at around 400-500m long or so especially as the Discovery's length is 1/3 nacelle, some will never be able to deal with it.

I think it looks and ties in well with what we know of the Enterprise B, which is a similar length but much bulkier.

The Eaglemoss comparisons between ToS and DSC Enterprise must have looked pretty silly (any chance of a picture anyone?), it's no skin off my nose as I think the larger size is more realistic and everything actually fits.

For me the only Starfleet ship that looked out of place in DSC was the Shenzou.

My only issue with the Discoprise's 400-something-meter size is... how they fit all those shuttles and fighters inside. They had 200 between her and Discovery. The Kelvinprise couldn't fit 100 (more like 20), and her shuttlebay was scaled up on the inside and would only fit a 1200m long ship

 

[David cgc]

The Eaglemoss comparisons between ToS and DSC Enterprise must have looked pretty silly (any chance of a picture anyone?), it's no skin off my nose as I think the larger size is more realistic and everything actually fits.

Here you go:

 

[fireproof78]

This rendition of the 1701 - despite it being a far more intricate and detailed design than the Discovery herself - will forever only be "just another tv-version" of that famous ship. One that outside a few Memory-Alpha article most people will probably forget ever even existed.

If you are reimagining a famous ship then yes, this is the nature of the beast that if it doesn't continue on, either in film or a show, and distinguish itself from the original then it is forgotten.

I don't think this is that controversial.

 

[Gonzo]

My only issue with the Discoprise's 400-something-meter size is... how they fit all those shuttles and fighters inside. They had 200 between her and Discovery. The Kelvinprise couldn't fit 100 (more like 20), and her shuttlebay was scaled up on the inside and would only fit a 1200m long ship

Nah it's obvious that they use inflatable technology.

All that's needed is a good foot pump.

 

[Tuskin38]

And again, even if they were the same length, the proportions won't sync up enough for either to be a plausible refit/defit.

You could say the same thing about the TOS and Refit at as well.

 

[fireproof78]

You could say the same thing about the TOS and Refit at as well.

TMP is a reboot. Just sayin'

 

[F. King Daniel]

Nah it's obvious that they use inflatable technology.

All that's needed is a good foot pump.

Well, the Enterprise did have a giant inflatable decoy...

 

[137th Gebirg]

It's hard to tell if TAS copied the original Space Battleship Yamato anime series or the other way around. They both aired around the same time initially (1974) and both hero ships kicked out inflatable decoys in one episode. Or maybe it was just one of those coincidental "zeitgeist" moments where children's animation of the day had a thing for spaceship-shaped balloons.

 

[Gonzo]

Here you go:
View attachment 9313

Cheers bud.

It looks good to me, the size difference between the two versions isn't terrible but the larger size does fit the lineage better, which is understandable as the original was designed in the 60's long before any of the other series so it's no surprise really.

If we do get a Pike/Enterprise series it's a shame we will never see the Enterprise A, would be interesting to see how they approach it.

 

[Ronald Held]

T'Pol was in the Earth Starfleet not Federation Starfleet.

 

[Rahul]

Here you go:
View attachment 9313

Cheers bud.

It looks good to me, the size difference between the two versions isn't terrible but the larger size does fit the lineage better, which is understandable as the original was designed in the 60's long before any of the other series so it's no surprise really.

If we do get a Pike/Enterprise series it's a shame we will never see the Enterprise A, would be interesting to see how they approach it.

Indeed.
Disregarding everything else and just focusing on the sizes - The (more realistic) length of the Disco-Enterprise works much better inbetween the NX-01 and the Enterprise C. In fact - The Excelsiour is ridiculously underscaled, with a bridge module and windows just a half deck tall.
I think the "realistic" size would be - NX-01 and Ent-C stay the same, and TOS and refit to have the size of the DISCO-Enterprise, and the Excelsiour being upscaled comparatively - maybe even a bit longer than the Ent-C, though not as tall and quite obviously having less volume.

 

[Tuskin38]

T'Pol was in the Earth Starfleet not Federation Starfleet.

And if she stayed in the service when the Federation formed, she would have been in the Federation Starfleet.

But that's besides the point, Spock being the first has never been said on screen anywhere, it isn't canon at all. It's an urban myth. In fact TOS itself contradicts that myth.

 

[Jesse1066]

Personally, I'm not too concerned with ship sizes. It's not hard to look at the Enterprise in DSC, TOS, and the TOS movies and imagine they're all about the same size, whether that size is 300 meters or nearly 500. Of course, if the Enterprise is scaled up, other ships should be a bit larger as well, particularly Excelsior. Does this bother me? Not a bit. It's all arbitrary anyway. The "official" numbers are still not canon.

 

[Gonzo]

Indeed.
Disregarding everything else and just focusing on the sizes - The (more realistic) length of the Disco-Enterprise works much better inbetween the NX-01 and the Enterprise C. In fact - The Excelsiour is ridiculously underscaled, with a bridge module and windows just a half deck tall.
I think the "realistic" size would be - NX-01 and Ent-C stay the same, and TOS and refit to have the size of the DISCO-Enterprise, and the Excelsiour being upscaled comparatively - maybe even a bit longer than the Ent-C, though not as tall and quite obviously having less volume.

Yeah the B could be upscaled a bit, we never really get to see it much as it was only shown in the film, same with the C really.

 

[fireproof78]

And if she stayed in the service when the Federation formed, she would have been in the Federation Starfleet.

But that's besides the point, Spock being the first has never been said on screen anywhere, it isn't canon at all. It's an urban myth. In fact TOS itself contradicts that myth.

I wonder if DSC is upsetting too many urban myth apple carts?

 

[Spaceship Jo]

The "common" given size for the Connie is simply a mistake (again - taken from an earlier draft where the ship had half the deck-count), that simply was never corrected, because no one cared enough, and it wasn't official anyway.

That's not true. The "common" size was actually quite well thought out by Jefferies and was indeed after the upscale. Shaw has pretty well definitively shown that Jefferies internal plans match the exterior and fit the "common" size, as you say.

But you are correct that it was never "official" in the "canon is only what's onscreen and doesn't include images on screens onscreen". Which is fine by me.

Either way, as much as I enjoy the tech manuals, blueprints and all that, I'm quite happy to accept the disparate sizes onscreen as being within the same ballpark of "feel" and I have no issue accepting them in terms of "what's onscreen is the same ship (even if I think it's a lesser - though not unimpressive - version in terms of design).

 

[Rahul]

That's not true. The "common" size was actually quite well thought out by Jefferies and was indeed after the upscale.

Actually, no. The "common" (too short) size comes from these Jefferies' sketches:

In which you clearly can see that the Enterprise was still in the stage where the saucer was only one(!) deck tall. When they built the actual model, they changed the size, by including an additional row of windows on the saucer's edge, making it two decks tall. (Of course the window-size was then off-scale, they are rather large for two decks, but the TMP-refit adjusted that as well with having smaller windows along the saucer and body)

Shaw has pretty well definitively shown that Jefferies internal plans match the exterior and fit the "common" size, as you say.

And again, not really. With two decks in the saucer, the size simply doesn't fit. Here is Doug Drexler's famous cut-away, in which he tried to fit two decks into the saucer and make the shuttlebay as close as possible:

But the thing is - he cheated. The humans in this picture would be midgets, and the decks only ~2m tall, even without the overhead-space that he already ommited for that picture. And the shuttle is somehow even smaller than a single deck.

The truth simply is - the "common" size doesn't fit. It was envisioned for a ship half the size, that was then upscaled before production to double the size.

But you are correct that it was never "official" in the "canon is only what's onscreen and doesn't include images on screens onscreen". Which is fine by me.

Either way, as much as I enjoy the tech manuals, blueprints and all that, I'm quite happy to accept the disparate sizes onscreen as being within the same ballpark of "feel" and I have no issue accepting them in terms of "what's onscreen is the same ship (even if I think it's a lesser - though not unimpressive - version in terms of design).

Otherwise, 100% agreed with everything else you wrote here.

 

[Spaceship Jo]

I'm not going to restate Shaw's entire thread here, but he has shown it to work just fine. Give it a search, it's long but worth it until the thread goes crazy.

MJ adjusted his drawings to the model's changed windows etc and still made the length work. There's room for argument about how literally you take the set height as deck height or the shuttlebay as forced perspective or not, etc.

Drexler cheated to fit more. The people aren't only mini, they're also wildly different from each other!

It's crazy this is still even considered an issue. Shaw closed the book pretty definitively.

Now if one wants the Big E to be bigger, or for the windows to make more sense, that's fine. The neck and saucer edge in particular are challenges for people who want consistency of window placement, and lots of fan art threads are filled with different solutions. Heck, not everyone even agrees the windows are windows.

I'll put it this way: facts show me that I need somewhere between zero and one grain of salt to make the TOS Enterprise work... and I need a gallon of salt to make the various Kirk / Pike Enterprises the same ship. I find that gallon easy to swallow, and that zero to one grain isn't even worth mentioning next to that gallon.