Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Alan Roi]

And the Discovery creators, obviously. As they are the ones that go out of their way to constantly tell us this all fits with TOS.

So what? So did the creators of TAS, so did the creators of TNG and so on.

 

[fireproof78]

is is commonly used and known device, why would they keep constantly mentioning it? It just works. Granted

Because it is implausible and has been used in many more implausible ways. As I mentioned in another thread, the transporter bothers me far more than Khan's blood.

 

[gottacook]

Nor do the fact that aliens often converse with each other in English, where they should be using their own language.

This is what I loved about the Klingon-only scene in TUC: They start out speaking in Klingon with subtitles, and suddenly Christopher Plummer switches to English. That was artfully done, although I realize that scene length in TV episodes often doesn't allow for that sort of thing.

 

[Longinus]

This is what I loved about the Klingon-only scene in TUC: They start out speaking in Klingon with subtitles, and suddenly Christopher Plummer switches to English. That was artfully done, although I realize that scene length in TV episodes often doesn't allow for that sort of thing.

Yep, that is a fine way to do it.

 

[fireproof78]

Do you not know what 'legacy issues' mean? The Guardian was something created for a TV show trying to stay on the air from week-to-week. Not a billion dollar franchise with everyone concerned about how every 'i' is dotted and 't' is crossed.

Which is why I've always been in favor of a reboot vs. trying to cram a show inside the TOS (lack of) continuity.

I would love a clean reboot. But the objection you raise regarding Boreth can be made regarding Guardian of Forever. In fact, it was the subject of a Trek book, but apparently not worthy of mention again.

 

[Alan Roi]

Instead of "outside of Star Trek" I should have said outside of fiction, as a real subject of investigation.

Debunkers started investigating decades before Trek.

Einstein's special relativity which lead to real world 'teleportation' in quantum physics.

 

[Vger23]

This implies that Ellison had seen the show on NBC before "deigning" to write for it. That wasn't the case; he was turning out drafts of his story before "the thing" had aired a single episode.

I recall (in Gerrold's The World of Star Trek) that the producers had asked Asimov whether a barrier at the edge of the galaxy was "plausible" and he said it was. (Given the sheer lousiness of the Final Frontier script, I'm sure no one asked whether a barrier at the center was plausible.)

Completely disagree. The sheer amount of radiation, stellar births/deaths, intense gravity, etc that would be present at the galactic core make the concept of a "barrier" preventing travel in the center of the Galaxy far more reasonable than some strange "negative energy" barrier keeping people from entering or exiting the Milky Way.

Or perhaps people thought that half of the things on your list were silly too. (I considered doing a case by case analysis, but I think that would be too deraily even for this board. Some of the things you list however, such as humanoid aliens and existence of telepathy, whilst not exactly realistic are so common genre conventions that they feel out of place on this list.)

I think one thing that makes these 'silly' elements more noticeable in Discovery is the serialised nature. In more episodic Trek there was certainly cases when something really stupid happened. But it was that one episode, we moved on and forgot about it. In Discovery these elements are tied in to the overall are narrative, forming an integral part of it, so they're kinda on your face all the time. I think the Bajoran Orbs are somewhat comparable to this, though. A lot of people didn't really like them either, or the whole Pah Wraith vs Prophet thing that was involved in that. (I liked the Wormhole aliens at first, as it was a genuine attempt to portray advanced super aliens that really felt that they weren't just humans with superpowers, but that shit devolved into utter nonsense really fast.)

If so many people find those elements silly and unacceptable, how are they even Star Trek fans? Some of the very fabric of what the franchise is based upon is represented there.

My point isn't whether any of these things, including time crystals, are stupid fantasy or not. My point is that this is a fundamental part of Star Trek mythology. To suddenly demand a different direction and standards from the franchise is asking it to be something it is not, and has never been. So my question is simply why this particular moment is when we decide to get hung up on it?

Couldn't possibly be bias....Star Trek fans are totally unbiased.

 

[Longinus]

Because it is implausible and has been used in many more implausible ways. As I mentioned in another thread, the transporter bothers me far more than Khan's blood.

The basic use of transporter doesn't bother me, but many of the bizarre accidents and insane transporter cures do. I'm with you on the augment blood thing. It is not terribly implausible, especially we are merely taking about reviving a very recently deceased person under hi-tech hospital conditions. Death is a process, even now we have the capability revive people from states which would have in centuries past considered to be definitely dead. It is a bit iffy that such ancient genetech could achieve anything that medical tech centuries later couldn't, but not a big deal, merely a bit weird. The issue concerning the augment blood is actually completely different one: they had several other augments on the ship, so there was need to hunt Harrison for his blood.

 

[Longinus]

But the objection you raise regarding Boreth can be made regarding Guardian of Forever. In fact, it was the subject of a Trek book, but apparently not worthy of mention again.

I don't think it is quite the same. The Guardian is an entity with its own will, so can certainly refuse to cooperate.

In any case, I don't think the argument is really about Boreth per se, it is about the time crystals seeming to be a naturally occurring mineral, which would certainly imply that they could be found elsewhere as well. Then again, it is pretty unclear in what extent the time travel is due the crystal itself and in which extent due the tech connected to it. I have kinda forgotten the details of the Mudd time shenanigans episode, and how exactly was the tech represented there... I should probably re-watch it.

 

[fireproof78]

issue concerning the augment blood is actually completely different one: they had several other augments on the ship, so there was need to hunt Harrison for his blood.

I don't see that as an issue since McCoy would not have the time to do the blood tests to know for certain it would work. Harrison was a sure thing.

 

[fireproof78]

I don't think it is quite the same. The Guardian is an entity with its own will, so can certainly refuse to cooperate.

If the argument is whether or not the planet would be assailed for its powers I think so.

 

[Longinus]

I don't see that as an issue since McCoy would not have the time to do the blood tests to know for certain it would work. Harrison was a sure thing.

Yeah, not buying that. It working on a Tribble isn't any way indicative that it would work on a human. And he definitely should have rushed to get the blood from other augments to run those tests, even if others chased Harrison.

 

[Longinus]

If the argument is whether or not the planet would be assailed for its powers I think so.

Okay, yeah, that's fair. I find it plausible enough that the presence of the time crystals on Boreth specifically isn't widely know, and neither is the existence of the Guardian of Forever. However, the existence of time crystals in general is certainly known, and if they're naturally occurring there must be many places in the galaxy where they can be obtained.

 

[Vger23]

Okay, yeah, that's fair. I find it plausible enough that the presence of the time crystals on Boreth specifically isn't widely know, and neither is the existence of the Guardian of Forever. However, the existence of time crystals in general is certainly known, and if they're naturally occurring there must be many places in the galaxy where they can be obtained.

Perhaps not. Perhaps the unique environmental conditions, gravity, temperature, mineral composition, etc of the planet are exactly what the crystals need to form.

 

[Nerys Myk]

I would say the fact that Boreth hasn't been leveled over and over again by armies trying to gain hold of them.

That can be applied to any planet with a "game changing" piece of tech/material: Guardian of Forever, Scalos, Exo III, Mudd's Planet, Platonius...

 

[fireproof78]

Yeah, not buying that. It working on a Tribble isn't any way indicative that it would work on a human. And he definitely should have rushed to get the blood from other augments to run those tests, even if others chased Harrison.

You can not buy it all you want. Doesn't make it less plausible.

 

[Longinus]

You can not buy it all you want. Doesn't make it less plausible.

It's a glaring plot hole. Granted, it is on a film that is mainly composed of plot holes, so it is not that surprising.

 

[fireproof78]

It's a glaring plot hole. Granted, it is on a film that is mainly composed of plot holes, so it is not that surprising.

This will be an agree to disagree moment

 

[Alan Roi]

Two scripts from one of the most literary and humane SF writers, considered one of the absolute gods of the genre now, T Sturgeon. They weren't flukes tossed in over the transom. But, yeah, Star Trek was fluff.

How about Asimov?
"[He] speaks of his appreciation for the show three times during the video, now describing Star Trek as the "sanest" and "most meaningful" program of its kind, one that "tackled real social problems," was "not devoted entirely to adventure," and had "fully realized characters" (citing Mr. Spock as Exhibit A). He may still have objected to the infamous split infinitive "to boldly go" (once a nitpicker, always a nitpicker), but he still thought the show "really presented the brotherhood of intelligence."

After Asimov wrote his initial critique in TV Guide, he and Gene Roddenberry exchanged letters, and the two formidable sci-fi minds became friends and even collaborators thereafter. A 1967 Time magazine profile described Asimov as "batting out books on a new electric typewriter, emerging only occasionally to watch Star Trek (his favorite TV show)," and he went on to become an advisor to the show. A Letters of Note post on Roddenberry and Asimov's correspondence contains a 1967 exchange wherein they put their heads together to solve the problem of how to give Captain Kirk lines as good as the ones that naturally go to a more unusual character like Spock. Since Asimov also contributed original ideas to the show, after having gone on record as a fan. . . ." (http://www.openculture.com/2015/12/...tar-trek-critic-to-star-trek-fan-advisor.html

Yup, sounds like that literary SF guy couldn't stand the show either.

Even iconoclast Ellison deigned to write for it. He hated what they did to it, b/c y'know, he was smart and tv producers were stupid. (Must be where GR got his idea about network brass.) Still, he respected the thing enough to write for it.

Hard science writers disdained Star Trek? Well, I'm sure Arthur C. Clarke musta LOATHED it, then, right? Yup, so much so, that he published a love letter titled "Forty Years of Star Trek" in the National Enquirer . . . No, wait, it was in Locus, the respected journal about the field of science fiction?! Here's a reprint, if anyone cares: http://startrekofgodsandmen.com/mai...thur-c-clarke-&catid=1:latest-news&Itemid=147

Now, let it be noted he admits that Trek is not "hard" s-f. I don't think anyone is making that claim here. I have been clear that it is nonsense. But sciency nonsense, the way I likes it. That's all. But to make the claim that it was considered fluff or that intelligent people disdained it, is simply not true.

When it comes to DSC and its more overt use of traditionally fantasy tropes (mordor, Gothic cathedral, crystals, well: "On matters of taste threre can be no disputing." Yet here we are enjoying the sport and each others' company, anyway. It's a lot better than grading paperwork right now.

Love and peace to you all. I've been here since before the first JJ movie, and really enjoy it. Thanks for the fun.

Seems Star Trek's thing for "Mordor" and religious/historical architecture has been around and not so uncommon in Star Trek for quite some time, even before Peter Jackson brought LOTR to the big screen (to think!).

 

[Ovation]

What about the spores on Omicron Ceti III? Shouldn’t there be regular hospital ship runs there to cure people of, well, anything?