Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x12 - "Through the Valley of Shadows"

[Arpy]

What's the science behind the Guardian again?[

That it’s an ancient piece of technology as opposed to a piece of magic granite.

My time crystal theory is more plausible.

No, it isn’t.

Who can say?

The term “non-linear.”

 

[Nerys Myk]

That it’s an ancient piece of technology as opposed to a piece of magic granite.

Potato Potatoe

No, it isn’t.

Yeah it is.

The term “non-linear.

But were they always that?

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Potato Potatoe

Let's call the whole thing off.

 

[SolarisOne]

Thinking about Control is really giving me a hankering for a rewatch of Terminator 2. Weird.

 

[The Mighty Monkey of Mim]

If they ever tie in the time crystals on Boreth to anything, I hope it's the Prophets. Though the crystals are the wrong color I suppose - green instead of blue.

Orbs came in a variety of colors, as do time crystals. The ones here are green like the Orb first depicted in "Emissary" (DS9):

The one that powered the Daedalus suit was blue, as were some other Orbs such as the one first seen in "The Circle" (DS9):

And Michael does theorize in "Magic To Make The Sanest Man Go Mad" (DSC) that "a fourth-dimensional race" must have stabilized Mudd's crystal...

(Of course, this obviously needn't be the domain of the Prophets exclusively. Personally, I would prefer it simply be left as an obvious parallel rather than explicitly spoon-feeding us a specific direct connection.)

-MMoM

 

[Longinus]

Now as an adult -- well for some time now -- well, ok, since my twenties, I knew TOS wasn't too likely, science-wise. But it had a science-y veneer. And I wasn't that into science, but as a "smart kid" they talked smart talk on tv, so I loved it. They gave it the ol' college try. The writers/showrunners had come of age in the pulp era and were creating the show right after the 50s Bradbury/Sturgeon golden age. It was a form of science fiction, and I was reading Analog as a kid. The god-like beings are a step into fantasy, but there was usually a nod to evolution and psionic capabilities which were fact then.

I disliked when DS9 veered into pah wraiths and people shooting force-lightning out of their arms. That's at least aesthetically gettin into fantasy. I'm a sci-fi kid all growed up and simply don't like that. That is one beef about DSC, that it is future and techy and spaceships and all, but with, yes, the magic mushrooms, and time crystals, and now the castle of mordor or whatever, it feels like it's got a half a foot in fantasy. More than any Trek incarnation has since late DS9.

Yes, I know, I can hear the yeah-buts already, and yes, every series had its weirder eps and moments, but I'm just sayin' how DSC feels. Like this time suit that can also go anywhere, not be noticed, but sometimes it's crazy-noticeable, and it moved a church out of World War III. I can hear Roddenberry's or Justman's memos in my head, questioning . . . wait . . . how did . . . what now? So thanks, all for catayzing my thoughts on this, that DSC seems a little OK-er with being a bit more fantastical. I mean, TOS coulda called 'em SPACE CRYSTALS, or WARP CRYSTALS, but no, they went the extra mile and made a mineral-y sounding name for this nerdy 70s kid. Thanks, GR. I dig your vision. We reach, in other words!

For a whole lot of youse, DSC's being ok with being just a bit less sciency-feeling (Tilly's outbursts about science aside) and a bit more fantasy-esque is either ok, or a good thing. (Dare I say a God Thing? A little GR humor there.) ("Very little, ensign.") And it's not at all a deal breaker for me. Just not how I'd prefer it. I'd like my nonsense to look and sound more plausible, please! Y M M V and that's ok.

Ok, start telling me how wrong I am . . .

Yeah, I agree. When I was watching this episode, I actually though how the Boreth time monk thing made me feel like I was watching Doctor Who. Now, I like Doctor Who, but 'science' there certainly works way more handwavey and magical manner than generally in Star Trek. I don't usually mind it in Who, but it kinda feels out of place in Star Trek.

 

[keoluperalto]

I'm living for that Enterprise bridge scene & Number One's console with the flip up goose neck display (captured on slow-mo)...a bit of retro old school but functional. Kudos to the set designers on a 2019 take on the TOS franchise.

https://preview.redd.it/xpryzg43lfq...bp&s=9c972c582d806a195faa4acc9a0752cb77409936

 

[SirRocko711]

"Probably, somebody discovered a hangnail."

It's been years since I've seen "The Menagerie." I was revisiting it just now after this episode and when McCoy is called up to the ship for a medical emergency, he makes that wisecrack.

Awesome reference!

 

[thribs]

Well we know green signifies time. Marvel told us that.

 

[Nerys Myk]

Well we know green signifies time. Marvel told us that.

Hulk is a Time Lord.

 

[Alan Roi]

Yeah, and what if DSC is actually Hamlet except for everything that they actually say and do? You’re doing extra work to make what’s presented work — ironically, like the Reeves-Stevenses.

Look, I like the show a lot, but in this they dropped the ball, and I don’t understand the need to argue about it. The writers are interested in story, not science or consistency. The fan can enjoy the story on its own terms, but then to not admit it’s problematic is crazy.

I don't have to do any more work than you are. And I can honestly say Disco isn't any more problematic for me than any Star Trek that came before it. Less so in many ways. Its at least as consistent as any previous series to me and presents just as much plausible science. I see a show doing what it has always done, although a whole lot better in many respects. I am therefore not going to complain when it borrows real scientific terms instead of making up ones that sound more 'sciency'. I am not going to complain about a science fiction exploring religion because science fiction has been doing that since day one and Star Trek has as well. I am not going to complain if Star Trek messes with the viewers heads, because its been doing that since the Cage.

However, when it starts doing the things that made me stop watching every show in its first season, in 2 cases never to return.

Star Trek is science fiction. IMHO, science is the modifier in that two word description not the subject. And what makes me see failure is when it fails the subject not the modifier. IMO, Disco has not failed what is important. At least not yet. But when it returns to being dull and defined by a narrow set of rules which it has certain times in the past then I will walk away again for the same reason I don't watch police procedurals..

 

[fireproof78]

That it’s an ancient piece of technology as opposed to a piece of magic granite.

What makes the Guardian work? Magic.

I don't have to do any more work than you are. And I can honestly say Disco isn't any more problematic for me than any Star Trek that came before it.

This. Star Trek science has not been as consistent as I would prefer and moves at speed of plot. It bothers me very little. I do not watch Star Trek for hard scientific discovery.

 

[Alan Roi]

IMO, if its Star Trek it will contain implausibility. It might sweeten it with technobabble that sounds 'sciency' even though whatever its talking about is entirely fantasy. That is just how it rolls.

There is pretty much only one science fiction TV series I have ever watched which I can say stands by the claim of scientific and futurist plausibility and it's not Star Trek. It's Star Cops.

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[plynch]

Implausible science-y fiction (TOS/TNG/VOY
v.
implausible scienc-y and fantastical fiction (somewhat DSC and some DS9)

I understand, basically in my lifetime 1966+ (and many moooore?) fantasy has been in the ascendant, what with that little trilogy by that British dude, some movies by that Lucas fellow, Buffy, all those dudes in capes, the good doctor(s) so I get it, I'm not with Benny in the golden age of hard sci-fi. People like what they like. And I am on the plus side with DSC this season overall by the way, mainly because of Pike and Burnham-Spock.

 

[thribs]

That D7 reveal was rather poorly done. I would have made a bigger deal out of that.

 

[Galaxy]

It did look cool. Though it must have gone through some massive climate change in the 100 year between this episode and "Rightful Heir."

I did notice that while the CGI people made Boreth look like a volcano planet with ash in the air, Pike was wearing a winter jacket. Perhaps the CGI people were, again, on a different page. Did look pretty though.

Episode gets an 8 overall.

 

[Gilora]

People keep saying that it's new information that Pike was injured during a rescue attempt. But that information was given in The Menagerie, Part 1.

Mendez: "He went in, bringing out all those kids that were still alive."

 

[Nerys Myk]

I did notice that while the CGI people made Boreth look like a volcano planet with ash in the air, Pike was wearing a winter jacket. Perhaps the CGI people were, again, on a different page. Did look pretty though.

Episode gets an 8 overall.

Volcanoes and cold weather can coexist.

 

[Arpy]

What makes the Guardian work? Magic.

The Guardian is an artificial construct. Time Crystals are a mineral. The Guardian is singular and uncooperative. Time Crystals could be the single greatest threat in the history of the Star Trek universe. If you don't get how those are different and problematic, I can't help you.

This. Star Trek science has not been as consistent as I would prefer and moves at speed of plot. It bothers me very little. I do not watch Star Trek for hard scientific discovery.

Its about suspension of disbelief. Time Crystals are, to be blunt about it, idiotic. It takes work to look past them unlike how it does the Guardian. The Guardian in fact intrigues and is the opposite of work. Again, earth wind fire and water "medicine" requires you to work to accept it. Even then, you don't. Work is rationalizing the crystals being remnants of ancient tech. As they are, you take crystals merely as Fantasy.

 

[Galaxy]

Volcanoes and cold weather can coexist.

True, but from the space shots, there are lava rivers visible all over the place. Seems quite hot of a place.