USS Enterprise (eventually) on Discovery?

[cooleddie74]

Perhaps the amount of foodstuffs and water needed to sustain a large number of people shrunk as far as storage space was concerned?
With the advent of food synthesizers and then food replicators in the 24th century, the amount of space for other things apparently grew as did the number of folks that could be kept alive for longer periods of time.
(thus the 5 year missions?)

Yeah, there seemed to be a significant amount of cargo storage aboard the NX-01 and crew quarters were very small, even Archer's. It appears a huge chunk of the primary hull was devoted to cargo, life support and engineering systems, not to mention the shuttlepod launch bay and associated systems which occupied a fair amount of space in the lower part of the saucer.

 

[Gonzo]

I have mentioned before about how I found the Klingon Language overload in the pilot episodes to be just too much.

However I have found it hard to accurately describe what I found to be the problem beyond there being too much of it and the prosthetics getting in the way but reading the last couple of pages it came to me.

The actors spoke there lines like they were on a stage delivering the lines to the audience in Hamlet or Julius Caesar, it just sounded more like a list of phrases spoken in order rather than a true breathing language.

Klingon is a guttural almost physical language that is conveyed as much by the sound of the words as by the physical expressions and demeanor of the speaker, compare what we saw in Discovery's pilot episodes to how they are delivered in TNG or DS9, sometimes with a lingering threat of violence or a bark of pure thrill after a battle well fought.

The problem with the Klingon spoken in the first season is the lack of heart or feeling behind the words, it's not Shakespeare or latin and it's not meant to be spoken like it is.

 

[Dukhat]

So back to Berman Trek then with making random grunt noises up on the spot, because it sounds cool?

If I recall correctly, Berman Trek made use of Okrand’s Klingon language too, without any slow and sluggish narration.

 

[Hythlodeus]

If I recall correctly, Berman Trek made use of Okrand’s Klingon language too, without any slow and sluggish narration.

"made use", yeah in the broadest sense it did. However, what appeared on screen was something else entirely

 

[Longinus]

"made use", yeah in the broadest sense it did. However, what appeared on screen was something else entirely

But it doesn't matter. People who actually know how Klingon 'should' be pronounced are vanishingly rare, and it is all made up anyway. Who knows, maybe the Berman era Klingons were just speaking a different dialect. Think what a huge variety of dialects and accents there is in the English language. Someone from the Texan countryside will sound completely different than an upper-class Englishman, yet they're speaking the same language.

 

[DaveyNY]

The first season Klingons were speaking the dialect of ignorance?

 

[Hythlodeus]

But it doesn't matter. People who actually know how Klingon 'should' be pronounced are vanishingly rare, and it is all made up anyway.

I get that. I feel the exact same way over the various NCC-1701 discussions here. For me: A saucer section connected to a big tube like thingy with two smaller tubes attached on the side is easily recognizable as the Enterprise and I dont get all the fuzz about nacelle length or whatever.

However, whenever I read "The Klingon in DSC is bad", well, that's objectively false. It's the best spoken Klingon we ever had and the difference in quality is very noticable for those of us who care about this aspect of the fandom

 

[Dukhat]

"made use", yeah in the broadest sense it did. However, what appeared on screen was something else entirely

Well, in the broadest sense, they used Okrand Klingon when Klingon was actually spoken. Which was rare, because most of the time the Klingons spoke English.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Well, in the broadest sense, they used Okrand Klingon when Klingon was actually spoken. Which was rare, because most of the time the Klingons spoke English.

if they did, they usually made noises that were vaguely similar to what Okrand invented but were really just gibberish

 

[Dukhat]

if they did, they usually made noises that were vaguely similar to what Okrand invented but were really just gibberish

Do you have proof that it was just gibberish?

 

[Spaceship Jo]

if they did, they usually made noises that were vaguely similar to what Okrand invented but were really just gibberish

This is sort of the opposite argument that people usually use about Discovery, ie- Berman Trek was beholden to "proper Trek" rules and therefore had no creative freedom whereas Discovery is blazing its own trail not beholden to making the Enterprise look the same or Spock act the same etc in the name of better storytelling. Here we have Discovery doing a slavishly respectful use of proper Klingon language at the expense of dramatic creative freedom whereas Berman Trek was playing fast and loose with the rules in order to sell more the drama of the stage and give the actors more freedom of expression.
Not saying any of those angles are totally accurate, just interesting to hear the argument reversed.

 

[Hythlodeus]

Do you have proof that it was just gibberish?

"Whether or not we use the language as spelled out in Marc's dictionary is up to the individual writer. I personally find the dictionary cumbersome and usually find it easier to make it up phonetically." - Ronald D. Moore

departures from Okrand's version included the following:

• The writers made up their own Klingon words: e.g kuva'magh or pfiots, against Okrand's pronunciation rules of standard tlhIngan Hol
• They used established Klingon words but in such a way that they were strung together without following Okrand's grammar rules, for example SoH batlh jI' for "you honor me", even though this sentence means something like "I am a honor you are". The correct translation of "you honor me" would be choquvmoH or tuquvmoH, depending on whether you referred to one person or multiple people.
• They gave new or extended meaning based on the English translation of a word, for example pu'DaH(pronounced poo-dakh) – phasers and cha (pronounced chah) – torpedoes, becomes pu'Dah dak cha(pronounced puh-dar dack chah) meaning photon torpedoes, when Okrand had already devised ' otlh cha.
• Okrand specified that Klingons do not have any rituals for ending conversations, since courtesy was not part of their culture. A conversation simply ends when either participant leaves. However, Qapla' ("success") is often used in dialogue where English-speaking Humans would say, "good-bye".

 

[Longinus]

"Whether or not we use the language as spelled out in Marc's dictionary is up to the individual writer. I personally find the dictionary cumbersome and usually find it easier to make it up phonetically." - Ronald D. Moore

departures from Okrand's version included the following:

• The writers made up their own Klingon words: e.g kuva'magh or pfiots, against Okrand's pronunciation rules of standard tlhIngan Hol
• They used established Klingon words but in such a way that they were strung together without following Okrand's grammar rules, for example SoH batlh jI' for "you honor me", even though this sentence means something like "I am a honor you are". The correct translation of "you honor me" would be choquvmoH or tuquvmoH, depending on whether you referred to one person or multiple people.
• They gave new or extended meaning based on the English translation of a word, for example pu'DaH(pronounced poo-dakh) – phasers and cha (pronounced chah) – torpedoes, becomes pu'Dah dak cha(pronounced puh-dar dack chah) meaning photon torpedoes, when Okrand had already devised ' otlh cha.
• Okrand specified that Klingons do not have any rituals for ending conversations, since courtesy was not part of their culture. A conversation simply ends when either participant leaves. However, Qapla' ("success") is often used in dialogue where English-speaking Humans would say, "good-bye".

Whilst Okrand work is impressive from the linguistic perspective, all of this just illustrates to me how utterly pointless it was from the production perspective.

 

[Spaceship Jo]

"Whether or not we use the language as spelled out in Marc's dictionary is up to the individual writer. I personally find the dictionary cumbersome and usually find it easier to make it up phonetically." - Ronald D. Moore

departures from Okrand's version included the following:

• The writers made up their own Klingon words: e.g kuva'magh or pfiots, against Okrand's pronunciation rules of standard tlhIngan Hol
• They used established Klingon words but in such a way that they were strung together without following Okrand's grammar rules, for example SoH batlh jI' for "you honor me", even though this sentence means something like "I am a honor you are". The correct translation of "you honor me" would be choquvmoH or tuquvmoH, depending on whether you referred to one person or multiple people.
• They gave new or extended meaning based on the English translation of a word, for example pu'DaH(pronounced poo-dakh) – phasers and cha (pronounced chah) – torpedoes, becomes pu'Dah dak cha(pronounced puh-dar dack chah) meaning photon torpedoes, when Okrand had already devised ' otlh cha.
• Okrand specified that Klingons do not have any rituals for ending conversations, since courtesy was not part of their culture. A conversation simply ends when either participant leaves. However, Qapla' ("success") is often used in dialogue where English-speaking Humans would say, "good-bye".

I love all the detail here. I'm a glutton for this kind of info. That said, I think it's fair (even from an in-universe perspective) for changes in idioms, words, and structure over the time between TOS movies and TNG era. Text-speak springs to mind as a modern English equivalent, but that's just super obvious, whereas regional dialects can form their own lexicon and that can bounce back into the larger English language. Or look at Japanese or German adaptations of non-Japanese or German words or phrases.

So to these points (not directed at you Hythlodeus, just the info), I would say it could be argued that
1) there are variations or different words for the same things
2) I am a honor you are could be the Klingon "on fleek" or some other gramatically odd but accepted meaning, perhaps like Cockney slang brought to a wider vernacular
3) again variations of words for the same things
4) time or cultural shifts in conversational styles and formalities.

Which is to say that these all seem rooted in using Okrand's Klingon language, even if diverging from it's specific intended use. Do we all use Old English or Shakespeare's English or even 80s English. I wouldn't call it gibberish or random grunts if they still connect directly to the basic words and structures of the established language.

From an out of universe perspective, that's a whole other bag of live worms.

 

[Tuskin38]

Could this topic be moved to another thread?

 

[fireproof78]

Whilst Okrand work is impressive from the linguistic perspective, all of this just illustrates to me how utterly pointless it was from the production perspective.

If one is trying to craft a world why is it pointless? One of the things that interests me is the linguistics of fictional worlds, and how they reflect upon the overall creative process.

I know it is not for everyone but I struggle with finding it pointless...

 

[Tuskin38]

Ok my last comment on the language thing, the DSC team consulted Marc to help created the Kelpien language.

 

[Hythlodeus]

I love all the detail here. I'm a glutton for this kind of info. That said, I think it's fair (even from an in-universe perspective) for changes in idioms, words, and structure over the time between TOS movies and TNG era. Text-speak springs to mind as a modern English equivalent, but that's just super obvious, whereas regional dialects can form their own lexicon and that can bounce back into the larger English language. Or look at Japanese or German adaptations of non-Japanese or German words or phrases.

So to these points (not directed at you Hythlodeus, just the info), I would say it could be argued that
1) there are variations or different words for the same things
2) I am a honor you are could be the Klingon "on fleek" or some other gramatically odd but accepted meaning, perhaps like Cockney slang brought to a wider vernacular
3) again variations of words for the same things
4) time or cultural shifts in conversational styles and formalities.

Which is to say that these all seem rooted in using Okrand's Klingon language, even if diverging from it's specific intended use. Do we all use Old English or Shakespeare's English or even 80s English. I wouldn't call it gibberish or random grunts if they still connect directly to the basic words and structures of the established language.

From an out of universe perspective, that's a whole other bag of live worms.

well, the above is just the easier 'proof'. I find it easier to point to that examples than to post links to youtube videos like this one, where 80% of the Klingon you here is really just gibberish and dissect it non-existant-in-Okrand-Klingon word for word. or the infamous Hunting song that is 100% gibberish to Klingon speakers. so I focused on the easy stuff, where ar least some resemblance to Okri's work is recognizable

I mean, to a not Klingon-speaker, how does one 'proof' the made up stuff is not the stuff someone else is made up, without going through the dictionairy together?

 

[Longinus]

If one is trying to craft a world why is it pointless? One of the things that interests me is the linguistics of fictional worlds, and how they reflect upon the overall creative process.

I know it is not for everyone but I struggle with finding it pointless...

It is pointless for the producers to waste their time getting the fictional language 'right' as it makes absolutely no difference to 99.99% of the viewers.

 

[Hythlodeus]

It is pointless for the producers to waste their time getting the fictional language 'right' as it makes absolutely no difference to 99.99% of the viewers.

As it is pointless to get every detail of the Enterprise right?