Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x09 - "Project Daedalus"

[Yistaan]

Hoo boy, I was not nearly as chill ten years back as I am now. Spock is entitled to a tantrum under his circumstances, I think.

I find it the opposite actually. Bitterness creeps in as years go by and you see the optimism of your youth was unfounded, and the sheer amount of hard work you put in school and in your job at twenties leads to bare minimum results (high-paying, stable job but no social life and your reward for being a good, decent, reliable person is "I don't want to be rude, but I don't know you.")

In the end I find myself more thinking like a kid in my 30s (spending time on Star Trek and other entertainment forums, caring mostly about my pet and what comic book/computer game I will enjoy next) than I ever did in my early 20s when I was trying so hard to be "mature" and "adult".

There still wasn't such a drastic change between me at 27 and 35, just more outgrowth of elements that were already there. 35 year old me and 27 year old me wouldn't find each other unrecognizable.

And from personal experience with other people, if someone is throwing tantrums at 27 I wouldn't hold my breath that would go away at 35. I found out the hard way that a lot of people claiming they "matured" or "grew up" is them just hiding those darker aspects of their personalities better...

 

[lawman]

Just watched it, so weighing in a few days late. First reactions...

* I really enjoyed the emotional tone of the episode, and the character interactions, which were skillfully written and acted. Unfortunately, the plot didn't quite work for me. In particular, when everyone was on the bridge just watching things go sideways on the station, I kept wondering "Did the transporters go down and no one mentioned it? Why don't they just transport the team back? Or at least Airiam?" It drained all the tension out of the showdown.

* In larger story-arc terms, I can't say I'm thrilled that this has turned into "Control = Skynet."

It drains the moral complexity out of things. I was hoping that the threat posed by S31 would involve actual live beings with plausible (if corrupt) motivations. As serialized storytelling goes, it also seems contrived to reveal that Starfleet is being threatened from within because it relied on a thing we've literally never had described in any detail before this very episode (as witness all the past speculation over "what is Control anyway?").

Now that I think about it, there's a pretty good argument that "Red Angel = John Connor," too. Which doesn't help...

 

[Disco!Disco!]

Instead, he said "What I feel is that failure is liberating. And for the first time, I enjoy expressing emotion." I don't know who's saying this line, but it's not any Spock I recognize...

"Cage" Spock totally had emotional outbursts.

"THE WOMEN!!"

Of course Discovery would mine that for drama. It's an unexplored character journey.

 

[fireproof78]

And from personal experience with other people, if someone is throwing tantrums at 27 I wouldn't hold my breath that would go away at 35. I found out the hard way that a lot of people claiming they "matured" or "grew up" is them just hiding those darker aspects of their personalities better...

Spock often is hiding things though, as we discover in TOS.

Also, we know that Spock is proactive in terms of wanting become more Vulcan as he goes. This is just one step in his journey.

Regardless, individuals will vary, and I have no doubt that Spock could grow in ten years.

 

[cooleddie74]

Late Season 1 Kirk feels very different at times from early Season 1 Kirk. Compare the thoughtful, measured Kirk of 1967 episodes to the Kirk of the night of September 8, 1966 that lambasted Professor Crater for "bleeding too much" and not wanting to kill the last of the salt creatures.

 

[Nyotarules]

Considering that the Picard show supposedly has something to do with Romulans (distant relatives of Vulcans), maybe this is the premise of that show.

Ethan Peck can be a great Spock as shown in 'If Memory Serves'. But he needs good writing. That scene with Spock knocking down the chessboard after a tantrum in this episode was awful. I don't blame Peck here, but the writers of the script that told him to do that.

Spock is not supposed to be a violent character. We're already having trouble with this with Quinto-Spock over at the Kelvin timeline.

This is the Spock that smiled in The Cage, that shouted 'The women!' but you have an issue with him showing anger? LOL

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Just had another thought.

Now we know for sure that Spock didn't kill the shrinks at Starbase 5. Unfortunately, it means that Section 31 probably killed them.

I mean, S31 can't take the chance that the people it's trying to frame Spock for murdering, will turn up in public...

 

[Alan Roi]

Just had another thought.

Now we know for sure that Spock didn't kill the shrinks at Starbase 5. Unfortunately, it means that Section 31 probably killed them.

I mean, S31 can't take the chance that the people it's trying to frame Spock for murdering, will turn up in public...

Or they were Section 31 operative in cover identities who are now on a different assignment somewhere else, a la Mission:Impossible.

 

[Yistaan]

Just had another thought.

Now we know for sure that Spock didn't kill the shrinks at Starbase 5. Unfortunately, it means that Section 31 probably killed them.

I mean, S31 can't take the chance that the people it's trying to frame Spock for murdering, will turn up in public...

Watching Trek in chronological order will seem so anticlimactic now. Once Bashir has captured Sloan, we'll all be waiting for old Spock to show up out of nowhere and say, "I will take it from here", as he forcibly mind melds with Sloan to rip the cure for Odo out of Sloan's memory, following up on a century-long fight with Section 31.

Also, it's surprising that Cornwell takes that video at face value so easily. New research shows that creating fake videos is a very possible reality in the near future here in the 21st century...

 

[Lord Garth]

And from personal experience with other people, if someone is throwing tantrums at 27 I wouldn't hold my breath that would go away at 35. I found out the hard way that a lot of people claiming they "matured" or "grew up" is them just hiding those darker aspects of their personalities better...

I agree with you. And, in fact, Spock throws a tantrum in "Amok Time" and gets pretty upset in "This Side of Paradise" and "All Our Yesterdays". He has limited emotional development because he keeps trying to repress it.

It's also why he gets so frustrated with the landing party in "The Galileo Seven". And probably also he never has a real command of his own. He just doesn't completely gel as a Captain, like "The Tholian Web" and "This Side of Paradise" show. He makes mistakes, trying to reduce friction between himself and the crew -- particularly McCoy -- is difficult, and as he said, he doesn't want command. Probably because he's not a people person. It's kind of funny that he goes on to become an Ambassador, but this was after he made peace with his two halves.

 

[Alan Roi]

Late Season 1 Kirk feels very different at times from early Season 1 Kirk. Compare the thoughtful, measured Kirk of 1967 episodes to the Kirk of the night of September 8, 1966 that lambasted Professor Crater for "bleeding too much" and not wanting to kill the last of the salt creatures.

And in the second season he reverts to this in going after the cloud creature in Obsession, which provokes that earlier, "kill the monster" motivation.

 

[Lord Garth]

I think a lot of people don't want to admit that Spock is a messed up person. He was messed up in TOS and he's messed up in Discovery. He probably wanted to pursue Kholinar to straighten himself out and to actually become what he thought he wanted to be.

 

[Mr. Laser Beam]

Or they were Section 31 operative in cover identities who are now on a different assignment somewhere else, a la Mission:Impossible.

I don't see how those shrinks could have been Section 31 agents. It's not like S31 could have known Spock would commit himself...

 

[fireproof78]

Watching Trek in chronological order will seem so anticlimactic now. Once Bashir has captured Sloan, we'll all be waiting for old Spock to show up out of nowhere and say, "I will take it from here", as he forcibly mind melds with Sloan to rip the cure for Odo out of Sloan's memory, following up on a century-long fight with Section 31.

Also, it's surprising that Cornwell takes that video at face value so easily. New research shows that creating fake videos is a very possible reality in the near future here in the 21st century...

I feel like this is looking for a problem. Old Spock is already chronologically established to be working on Romulus towards reunification, a project that is a highly personal passionate project for Spock.

Secondarily, humans are very inclined to believe video evidence. The idea that it could be a fake is one that I don't think jumps readily to mind for everyone.

 

[Alan Roi]

I don't see how those shrinks could have been Section 31 agents. It's not like S31 could have known Spock would commit himself...

Why? Knowing this sort of stuff is the job of an intelligence service. a la:

"A bunch or weird identical visitations have shown up all across the galaxy."
"Search for anything that might provide us info."
"A government psychiatric care facility reports a Star Fleet officer started yammering on about this several weeks ago, and drawing it all over his rubber room, and he's a Vulcan."
"Put together a team to check it out."

 

[Yistaan]

I feel like this is looking for a problem. Old Spock is already chronologically established to be working on Romulus towards reunification, a project that is a highly personal passionate project for Spock.

Secondarily, humans are very inclined to believe video evidence. The idea that it could be a fake is one that I don't think jumps readily to mind for everyone.

Oh come on, getting revenge on Section 31 is more, uh, logical!

 

[Alan Roi]

Oh come on, getting revenge on Section 31 is more, uh, logical!

 

[fireproof78]

Oh come on, getting revenge on Section 31 is more, uh, logical!

Logic, logic...logic is the beginning of wisdom-not the end.

 

[drt]

It isn't like Spock was roaming the halls and freaking out, he was in private with Burnham who seems to be able to get under his skin the way only siblings can...

Secondarily, humans are very inclined to believe video evidence. The idea that it could be a fake is one that I don't think jumps readily to mind for everyone.

Particularly in Cornwell's case, she has no reason to believe what's been presented to her is false.

 

[Yistaan]

Logic, logic...logic is the beginning of wisdom-not the end.

Considering that mindripping Sloan ended the Dominion war (the Founders would have fought to the bitter end if they were not cured) and Spock's mission to Romulus ended in miserable failure to the point Nero blew up whole planets just to get revenge on him (there's an entire Vulcan population still dead in the Kelvin timeline)...

Yeah, ditching Romulus to help Bashir out would have been more logical.