Captain Marvel (2019)

[TREK_GOD_1]

If Alien came out now, the exact same people would complain about Ripley..

I doubt that, since some of those people analyzing some of the recent films were around when Alien/Aliens were released. Some forget that Ripley as presented in Aliens (1986) was in the middle of arguably the biggest male hero / most testosterone-fueled movie character decade in film history. Just scratching the surface of what was in theaters before and after Aliens:

• Stallone had 2 Rocky movies 2 Rambo movies and Cobra.
• Arnold Schwarzenegger films of significance--all defining for his career and that testosterone hero decade of film: Conan the Barbarian, Conan the Destroyer, The Terminator & Commando. After Aliens' year of release, there were more major Arnold muscle-mashes: Raw Deal, Predator, The Running Man and Red Heat.
  
• Chuck Norris had 13 films in the 1980s, including the Missing in Action films, The Octagon, Lone Wolf McQuade, Invasion: U.S.A. and The Delta Force, all contributing to the half serious, half-tongue-in-cheek "legend" of Norris being some unbeatable fighting machine, not to mention being an idol to endless numbers of kids and adults in love with that "silent but deadly" super-masculine image.
  
• Charles Bronson still cleaned up earth's crimes in his 3 Death Wish sequels, and similar films from the grinder that was The Cannon Group
• the Lethal Weapon series (2 in the 80s)
• Die Hard
• Van Damme's breakout in this decade with Bloodsport

...and that's not even adding the more normal male heroes seen in the Star Wars, Star Trek & Superman sequels, the Indiana Jones trilogy, the first Burton Batman film and on and on. The point being is that with a movie decade with iconic and/or classic and/or incredibly violent male heroes at a level not seen before or since, no one raised a doubtful or negative eyebrow at Ripley winning the day (when the Colonial Marines could not). She was simply more of the great heroine introduced in 1979, and legions of male fans could not get enough. Why?

 

[Awesome Possum]

I doubt that, since some of those people analyzing some of the recent films were around when Alien/Aliens were released. Some forget that Ripley as presented in Aliens (1986) was in the middle of arguably the biggest male hero / most testosterone-fueled movie character decade in film history. Just scratching the surface of what was in theaters before and after Aliens:

• Stallone had 2 Rocky movies 2 Rambo movies and Cobra.
• Arnold Schwarzenegger films of significance--all defining for his career and that testosterone hero decade of film: Conan the Barbarian, Conan the Destroyer, The Terminator & Commando. After Aliens' year of release, there were more major Arnold muscle-mashes: Raw Deal, Predator, The Running Man and Red Heat.
  
• Chuck Norris had 13 films in the 1980s, including the Missing in Action films, The Octagon, Lone Wolf McQuade, Invasion: U.S.A. and The Delta Force, all contributing to the half serious, half-tongue-in-cheek "legend" of Norris being some unbeatable fighting machine, not to mention being an idol to endless numbers of kids and adults in love with that "silent but deadly" super-masculine image.
  
• Charles Bronson still cleaned up earth's crimes in his 3 Death Wish sequels, and similar films from the grinder that was The Cannon Group
• the Lethal Weapon series (2 in the 80s)
• Die Hard
• Van Damme's breakout in this decade with Bloodsport

...and that's not even adding the more normal male heroes seen in the Star Wars, Star Trek & Superman sequels, the Indiana Jones trilogy, the first Burton Batman film and on and on. The point being is that with a movie decade with iconic and/or classic and/or incredibly violent male heroes at a level not seen before or since, no one raised a doubtful or negative eyebrow at Ripley winning the day (when the Colonial Marines could not). She was simply more of the great heroine introduced in 1979, and legions of male fans could not get enough. Why?

None of this is based on reason. Just dumb sexism. There was no reason to attack Captain Marvel other than timing. If it had come out in 86, you’d give the exact same defense for the same reasons.

 

[Trekkin]

no one raised a doubtful eyebrow

How would you know? Got a mountain of fanzines stacked under the bed?

It’s very easy to say ‘people did/didn’t,’ when the only record of ‘fan response’ in the 80’s is people’s anecdotal memories. Get rid of the internet, and 20 years from now people probably wouldn’t know there was ever a fuss over Captain Marvel either.

———
Also: the idea of Ripley being completely different from your stereotypical scream queen (and therefore ‘more accepted’) because her gender is treated as a ‘non-issue’, is total bullshit.

Even ignoring that the resolution of her character arc in Aliens involves her overcoming her emotional/physical limitations through the power of ovaries, ‘written to be a man’ does not mean she was presented that way in the final film.
The difference between a dude in an undershirt and a woman running around with her nipples pressed against a thin singlet aside, if her gender ‘didn’t matter’ then she wouldn’t be contrasted with Lambert to show how she’s Not Like The Other Girls. Which is a pretty toxic cliché in itself.

(Also, makes me want to go to bat for Lambert out of spite. She’s not as bad as you seem to think, Ridley.)

Plus, as critics pointed out, Alien mines its horror from the violence being sexualised and gendered. Character getting raped, impreganated, and killed? A schlocky horror staple by that point. Yawn. The men being raped, impregnated, and killed? Biggest shock in cinema! Everyone vomit!

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

None of this is based on reason. Just dumb sexism. There was no reason to attack Captain Marvel other than timing. If it had come out in 86, you’d give the exact same defense for the same reasons.

Missing the point. Ripley was accepted in an era of explosive, testosterone-fueled films that makes this era look like an episode of Sesame Street by comparison. Why? Labeling every negative reaction to certain current female characters as sexism is a gross mischaracterization--a sweeping judgement not based on actually knowing why each person holds a certain opinion. Further, I'm aware of some of the YouTube reviewers some love to label as sexist, yet how can anyone hang the sexism label on them when some were among the same who praised Wonder Woman to no end. Reason?

 

[Awesome Possum]

The whole Ripley was written to either be male or female only applied to the first draft of Alien. The notion that this continued is based on people misunderstanding what was said on a documentary by one of the writers of Alien. Cameron was pretty clear about making Ripley into a mother. That’s why he brought in Newt and Hicks, he called any shot of them as a family picture.

Missing the point. Ripley was accepted in an era of explosive, testosterone-fueled films that makes this era look like an episode of Sesame Street by comparison. Why? Labeling every negative reaction to certain current female characters as sexism is a gross mischaracterization--a sweeping judgement not based on actually knowing why each person holds a certain opinion. Further, I'm aware of some of the YouTube reviewers some love to label as sexist, yet how can anyone hang the sexism label on them when some were among the same who praised Wonder Woman to no end. Reason?

Your memory must be failing because Wonder Woman was attacked too. But Ripley didn’t have an Internet full of pathetic man children who were terrified of women and constantly rant online about how so and so is sexist and emasculates men for confusing reasons. Your “logic” makes even less sense because even the male led films are more in touch with emotions, mostly between two men.

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

How would you know? Got a mountain of fanzines stacked under the bed?

Bullshit posts is not a response. If you were not around to know what the response was to Ripley, then you're talking out of your ass. There was a mass media world covering this long before the internet.

The difference between a dude in an undershirt and a woman running around with her nipples pressed against a thin singlet aside, if her gender ‘didn’t matter’ then she wouldn’t be contrasted with Lambert to show how she’s Not Like The Other Girls. Which is a pretty toxic cliché in itself.

What film were you watching? Lambert being panicked while Ripley was not is a long-lived character contrast with female and male characters:

John Carpenter's The Thing--with an all-male cast--had the same with paranoid, scared stiff characters such as Nauls and Windows, who were the opposite of the confident MacReady and Childs.

Endless war films (e.g., Platoon) zombie films (e.g., Return of the Living Dead comes to mind) use the same character contrast types. Additionally, action, westerns, sci-fi and horror have always used it in one way or another, usually with male-to-male relationships.

 

[CorporalCaptain]

Alien would have been attacked today for having an agenda, because it shows a woman surviving when the men, including the captain, are all killed. I'm surprised people don't call Ripley a Mary Sue. I'm also surprised that some people aren't more disdainful of Alien, since it was the first film noted (in a comic strip) by Bechdel to satisfy "The Rule," which of course came to be known as the Bechdel test.

 

[Awesome Possum]

The manbabies would probably love Captain Marvel if they weren’t in this MRA cult. They just hate what they’re told to hate.

 

[crookeddy]

I never felt emasculated by watching a beautiful woman constantly on my video screen. I only learned that apparently not everyone feels that way very recently...

 

[TREK_GOD_1]

The whole Ripley was written to either be male or female only applied to the first draft of Alien. The notion that this continued is based on people misunderstanding what was said on a documentary by one of the writers of Alien. Cameron was pretty clear about making Ripley into a mother. That’s why he brought in Newt and Hicks, he called any shot of them as a family picture.

Ripley being a mother or having a second chance at motherhood--in the framework of being an action hero--is not a negative, unless one projects that the idea of her strengths & reactions based (in part) on maternal instinct is undesirable.

Your memory must be failing because Wonder Woman was attacked too.

Are you kidding, AP? I'm betting you can count the haters on your hands, as W.W. as a character was the most celebrated part of Dawn of Justice--by far--while her solo film was widely praised not only as the best of the DCEU, but one of the greatest superhero films ever made. That was the common reaction to Wonder Woman, and that did not happen years after the fact, but while it was in theatres. Even now, the most anticipated DCEU film is the Wonder Woman sequel. Its arguably one of the most anticipated superhero films from any company.

But Ripley didn’t have an Internet full of pathetic man children who were terrified of women and constantly rant online about how so and so is sexist and emasculates men for confusing reasons. Your “logic” makes even less sense because even the male led films are more in touch with emotions, mostly between two men.

You think so-called "manbabies" have an issue with sensitivity in female-led films, but accept it in male-led movies? Generally, the kind of men who cannot stand seeing that do not want to see it in any film. These are same kind of people who made gay jokes about Steve Rogers and Bucky's devotion to each other, and accused Disney/Marvel of trying to "work that into" the Cap films. Nonsensical on their part, but I've found that its a small group of people who happen to be loud, but not the mainstream of thought.

 

[Teelie]

I was at a wedding this past weekend so I didn't get to see the movie. Going to try for this Friday or Saturday though.

And wow, that was a lot of posts since I was last here. Almost 150.

 

[Professor Zoom]

It's a backlash though. When Ripley was a female action hero, there wasn't a movement to call her a female action hero. She was just an action hero. Same when Wesley Snipes was a big movie star. He wasn't marketed as a black movie star, just a movie star.

That's how it was explained to me by a MRA anyway.

So the MRA's problem is calling a woman a woman?
And I'm so tired of MRA's complaining. It's one or two fucking movies a year in a sea of how many white dudes? Like, how many white dudes are the center of Marvel movies? ALL of them except Black Panther and Captain Marvel at this point.
These children...you ask for an inch and they think you're demanding the whole fucking bench.

 

[Awesome Possum]

Ripley being a mother or having a second chance at motherhood--in the framework of being an action hero--is not a negative, unless one projects that the idea of her strengths & reactions based (in part) on maternal instinct is undesirable.



Are you kidding, AP? I'm betting you can count the haters on your hands, as W.W. as a character was the most celebrated part of Dawn of Justice--by far--while her solo film was widely praised not only as the best of the DCEU, but one of the greatest superhero films ever made. That was the common reaction to Wonder Woman, and that did not happen years after the fact, but while it was in theatres. Even now, the most anticipated DCEU film is the Wonder Woman sequel. Its arguably one of the most anticipated superhero films from any company.



You think so-called "manbabies" have an issue with sensitivity in female-led films, but accept it in male-led movies? Generally, the kind of men who cannot stand seeing that do not want to see it in any film. These are same kind of people who made gay jokes about Steve Rogers and Bucky's devotion to each other, and accused Disney/Marvel of trying to "work that into" the Cap films. Nonsensical on their part, but I've found that its a small group of people who happen to be loud, but not the mainstream of thought.

You don’t remember the tantrums over the only women screens, the sexist reviews or the months of tweets? You may want to get that checked.

 

[Turtletrekker]

You don’t remember the tantrums over the only women screens, the sexist reviews or the months of tweets? You may want to get that checked.

https://www.self.com/story/wonder-woman-women-only-screenings

 

[The Lensman]

I think they’re more upset that there’s more than one example now. Ripley was fine, as long as she’s the only one. Anything more is an assault on men... somehow. I can’t wrap my head around their thinking, but I do have a fully functioning brain unlike the average MRA.

Yep. Essentially a novelty. I also think a lot of male "fans" over the years truly thought they were all for equality, but were expressing this from a position that was catered to. Either consciously or subconsciously they never thought equal representation would *actually* happen, and maybe on a deeper level didn't want it to happen. They could always point to that dim light on the horizon and offer pretty speeches about how "we'll get there one day", but ultimately were comfortable with the status quo. It not happening also allowed them to be White Knights of female fandom. They were the "needed" voices of the privileged saying "I'll fight for you!" On some level it gave them some sense of helping the "damsel in distress".

But then the times started changing, and women and other traditionally marginalized groups started demanding and slowly getting, more representation. They're not asking white guys permission, not asking for their approval, and don't care if they're comfortable with it and too many middle age white guys can't handle that. Now these guys have gone from "equal representation" to "more for others means less for me and I don't like that". And so too many in a fandom that I always thought of as generally liberal and accepting have shown themselves to be toxic as fuck when equal representation *actually* started happening.

Resentful of more representation because they think it means less for them or dejected because they're no longer needed as the White Knights of female fandom, who knows. For myself, I'm sick of listening to the most catered to group ever cry because their feelings aren't being factored into the equation anymore, as if they have to be.


They don't.


Everything is not for them anymore. They need to get used to it because this is the future.

 

[Infern0]

I’ll be so happy when Trump is out of office so this whole cult shit goes away. Not every single thing needs to be a political controversy. We should have been excited for Captain Marvel because she’s badass and she’s going to kick Thanos’ ass. Instead a bunch of butthurt losers tried to make it into a thing because they don’t really have anything real to worry about. Nothing bothers them so they purposely get upset over nothing.

More diversity in comic book movies can benefit all. It just means more movies. Remember when we were happy that X-Men wasn’t garbage, now the movies are good. Black Panther was up for Best Picture. An animated Spider-Man movie won an Oscar. Not only did it tell an amazing story about Peter, but it told a beautiful one about Miles Morales learning to be a hero and Nic Cage was Spider-Man Noir. More diversity is a path to more Nic Cage in wonderfully weird roles. We don’t have to fight over this.

People are miffed because we have spent a decade with the avengers we have now and a new character is coming in and looks likely to "steal the win" as an 89th minute substitute.

I'm neither a trump supporter, a male, white or straight but I agree with the above premise, we have been building to endgame for a decade, I love the established characters and I feel they should have rounded off their story BEFORE introducing Danvers and making her the tentpole of the next decade.

I think that's a perfectly valid argument, I thought captain marvel was a decent above average movie but it was no Black Panther

People bring up trump because if you express any negativity against any kind of woke media even if it's got nothing to do with the political message you get accused of being a an alt-right trump supporting, Maga hat wearing incel woman hater

I can "sort of" speak my mind on this but God damn if you are a straight white male you better shut your mouth or else.

With any form of woke media the only opinion allowed is that it's amazing, or else your opinion doesn't count.

That's what I don't agree with

 

[theenglish]

I don't really get that argument. I don't see anyone here attacking white males just for being white and male. Also, we don't have any evidence that Captain Marvel is going to steal the show all by herself in Endgame so it is a bit presumptuous to make that claim. Furthermore, I can't believe that the majority of the posters on this board are not going to be okay with debating the good and the bad about this movie when the discussion is based on its actual merits--but not having seen the film and not having visited the other thread yet, I'm only guessing.

 

[Awesome Possum]

People are miffed because we have spent a decade with the avengers we have now and a new character is coming in and looks likely to "steal the win" as an 89th minute substitute.

I'm neither a trump supporter, a male, white or straight but I agree with the above premise, we have been building to endgame for a decade, I love the established characters and I feel they should have rounded off their story BEFORE introducing Danvers and making her the tentpole of the next decade.

I think that's a perfectly valid argument, I thought captain marvel was a decent above average movie but it was no Black Panther

People bring up trump because if you express any negativity against any kind of woke media even if it's got nothing to do with the political message you get accused of being a an alt-right trump supporting, Maga hat wearing incel woman hater

I can "sort of" speak my mind on this but God damn if you are a straight white male you better shut your mouth or else.

With any form of woke media the only opinion allowed is that it's amazing, or else your opinion doesn't count.

That's what I don't agree with

 

[Turtletrekker]

I don't think that anyone, anywhere actually believes that Carol is going to swoop in and "steal the win".

 

[Awesome Possum]

I don't really get that argument. I don't see anyone here attacking white males just for being white and male. Also, we don't have any evidence that Captain Marvel is going to steal the show all by herself in Endgame so it is a bit presumptuous to make that claim. Furthermore, I can't believe that the majority of the posters on this board are not going to be okay with debating the good and the bad about this movie when the discussion is based on its actual merits--but not having seen the film and not having visited the other thread yet, I'm only guessing.

She's just the big guns who comes in at the last moment who gives them the edge they need, I'm guessing it's going to be the main Avengers taking Thanos down. Probably Cap, who will die and make the whole planet cry.