It is. But deciding between Georgiou and Leland is a lot like voting. I don't trust either one but who benefits me more or, more accurately, costs me less?
On another note: I give Leland 'til Episode 10.
Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x07 - "Light and Shadows"
- Thread starter Commander Richard
- Start date
It is. But deciding between Georgiou and Leland is a lot like voting. I don't trust either one but who benefits me more or, more accurately, costs me less?
On another note: I give Leland 'til Episode 10.
9/10 for me. I was tempted to give it 10/10 if each plot stood alone as an episode rather than meshed together.
Happy to see Yeoh again and I believe plotting to get rid of Leland (I did not trust him either), sorry Sarek, for your logic you sure are stupid and naive when it comes to Section 31, they are not the V'Shar. Amanda is going to roast your ass!
Favourite scenes
Pike putting Tyler in his place about the chair outranking the badge
Sarek, Amanda and Michael in the cave and Sarek being put in his place and showing how his logic is truly uncertain when it comes to his family (shades of TSFS)
Fight scene with Pippa and Burnham (she knows what happens for the next ten years so is protecting her).
When Discovery started I did not care whether it was part of the Prime universe or not but having watched Season 2 I am joining the camp that wishes the producers had just done a JJ and started their own AU. A reboot TOS with the production design and without the limited world building of the 60's show would be amazing. Plus I wanna save sexy Pike from that damn wheelchair!
Happy to see Yeoh again and I believe plotting to get rid of Leland (I did not trust him either), sorry Sarek, for your logic you sure are stupid and naive when it comes to Section 31, they are not the V'Shar. Amanda is going to roast your ass!
Favourite scenes
Pike putting Tyler in his place about the chair outranking the badge
Sarek, Amanda and Michael in the cave and Sarek being put in his place and showing how his logic is truly uncertain when it comes to his family (shades of TSFS)
Fight scene with Pippa and Burnham (she knows what happens for the next ten years so is protecting her).
When Discovery started I did not care whether it was part of the Prime universe or not but having watched Season 2 I am joining the camp that wishes the producers had just done a JJ and started their own AU. A reboot TOS with the production design and without the limited world building of the 60's show would be amazing. Plus I wanna save sexy Pike from that damn wheelchair!
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I would imagine it's an educated guess based on...
- the Red Angel's anticipation / seeming foreknowledge of where they'll be
- the Red Angel's mission to assist or direct the Discovery crew and Spock/Burnham and protect certain aspects of Earth and Kaminar, which suggests a familiarity with them rather than a contemporary species with no connection to these people
- detecting tachyons when the Red Angel showed up
- its vastly superior technology and manipulation of space/time
- it's interference in both present and past affairs, which from their perspective would make them most likely assume it's someone/something from their future looking back rather than a contemporary
- past Starfleet experience with the Temporal Cold War, Daniels, the Na'kuhl, and the Sphere Builders, which involved interfering agents and factions from the future.
Of course now you have a temporal anomaly sending back actual Discovery tech enhanced in the future to attack them, possibly by another faction, so that both confirms and complicates things a bit.
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I'm divided on whether the mind eradicator was real or not. On the one hand, it makes sense as a plausible lie from Georgiou in her power move to usurp Leland. On the other hand, the show has gone out of its way to paint 31 too seriously as seeking "galactic peace" through less-than-legal means. We need to be reminded that they can still be murderers and cutthroats, even if they put up a front for the benefit of Pike and Sarek and Burnham.
Burnham's parents were killed "by Klingons" on a Human-Vulcan colony. I guess now we can assume it was a staged attack by Section 31, possibly to keep up tensions with the Klingons. Since Leland was involved in the attack, in the mid-2230s at the latest, that implies he was with the Section far earlier than Pike was aware of it. Probably as a Reed/Bashir-type double agent.
Section 31 was involving itself with Klingon affairs in Enterprise. The Klingons are the obvious next big threat, so perhaps they have a hand in fracturing the Houses and keeping up their strife and isolation for 100 years.
Burnham's parents were killed "by Klingons" on a Human-Vulcan colony. I guess now we can assume it was a staged attack by Section 31, possibly to keep up tensions with the Klingons. Since Leland was involved in the attack, in the mid-2230s at the latest, that implies he was with the Section far earlier than Pike was aware of it. Probably as a Reed/Bashir-type double agent.
Section 31 was involving itself with Klingon affairs in Enterprise. The Klingons are the obvious next big threat, so perhaps they have a hand in fracturing the Houses and keeping up their strife and isolation for 100 years.
So, a random aside:
I wonder if they got the idea for Spock's "special" status as a child due to the issues that he had re-integrating himself after his resurrection at the end of STIII? One could see that he was essentially repeating aspects of his childhood trying to integrate his katra back into the new adult body after all.
I wonder if they got the idea for Spock's "special" status as a child due to the issues that he had re-integrating himself after his resurrection at the end of STIII? One could see that he was essentially repeating aspects of his childhood trying to integrate his katra back into the new adult body after all.
OK some crazy random thoughts.
Red Angel could be a combination of V'Ger and Decker from the future..... Hey if we are allowed to go crazy with ideas why not?
Or yeah it could be Airiam too or even Georgiou for all we know.
Found this picture online.
Red Angel could be a combination of V'Ger and Decker from the future..... Hey if we are allowed to go crazy with ideas why not?
Or yeah it could be Airiam too or even Georgiou for all we know.
Found this picture online.
I could see that. Meanwhile, while the Klingons are occupied, the Federation was allowed to grow into a major power in the Quadrant.
That was.... okay? I guess?
Like, I still immensely enjoyed this episode more than any season 1 episode. In fact - casually travelling to alien planets, exploring weird space phenomena, conflict on the bridge (as a result of conflicting allegiances, not for the sake of drama), time paradoxes, spy double-crosses - all of this is really what I think modern Star Trek should be, and I loved every minute of it!
That being said: This episode also has issues. The first and foremost being Spock, but also all the other connections to previous Trek lore. Much like the Klingons and Mirror Universe in season 1, they completely failed to feel organic, and they don't enhance the stakes - they manage to diminish the value of both this show and the original they are pulling from at the same time.
Like, I would have been immensely intruiged by Burnham's mysterious alien brother, and goddamn do I love some good spy-stuff. Had these elements been original characters and concepts for this show - I would shower it with praise as few Trek shows before. But having this completely different character be Spock, and this organisation S31, just doesn't jive at all. I guess this is still part of the original sin of the concept for the show, rather than the fault of the current writers. But they really should stop trying to endulge in fan-pleasing - they really should fucking try to stand on their own feet at this point!
What I liked:
So, yeah. After some excellent episodes, this one still was good. But I can't help but feel a bit of a major letdown about all the canon-connection. IMO when this show focuses on it's own elements, it can be brilliant. Let them! I don't want them to revise old Trek lore - I want them to add NEW lore!
Final grade: I'm not using the x/10 system here, because this episode doesn't really stand on it's own - it's mostly un-impressive set-ups. Like TNG's "Chain of Command", if the arc turns out to be great, I will greatly enjoy this episode on rewatch. If not - not.
Like, I still immensely enjoyed this episode more than any season 1 episode. In fact - casually travelling to alien planets, exploring weird space phenomena, conflict on the bridge (as a result of conflicting allegiances, not for the sake of drama), time paradoxes, spy double-crosses - all of this is really what I think modern Star Trek should be, and I loved every minute of it!
That being said: This episode also has issues. The first and foremost being Spock, but also all the other connections to previous Trek lore. Much like the Klingons and Mirror Universe in season 1, they completely failed to feel organic, and they don't enhance the stakes - they manage to diminish the value of both this show and the original they are pulling from at the same time.
Like, I would have been immensely intruiged by Burnham's mysterious alien brother, and goddamn do I love some good spy-stuff. Had these elements been original characters and concepts for this show - I would shower it with praise as few Trek shows before. But having this completely different character be Spock, and this organisation S31, just doesn't jive at all. I guess this is still part of the original sin of the concept for the show, rather than the fault of the current writers. But they really should stop trying to endulge in fan-pleasing - they really should fucking try to stand on their own feet at this point!
What I liked:
- Connecting the weird space anomaly of the week to the main plot was a good choice (and what I originally had hoped "An Obol for Caron" would be). That really enhances these types of plots from "a Trek trope" to a meaningfull adventure with real consequences and a valid reason for our crew running into it.
- Extremely nice effects, both vfx and on the production side - vfx shots from outside the shuttles, the red trees on Vulcan, all the space-ship action, that weird transformed squid-probe. Excellent work!
- I really liked the conflict between Pike and Ash throughout - it had IMO the perfect mixture of being professional and personal - but none of these too much - so that it was a palpable conflict in which both characters remain strong and their actions believable. And I love Pike's snark
- Personal log opening monologue instead of overly dramatic speeches. Very good.
- So, Airam is taken over by Brainiac? On it's own - a pretty good plot. But I think DIS as a show has a massive problem of over-relying on "shocking" character betrayals - they didn't work in S1, they don't work with Georgiou in S2. This one at least looks fascinating (computer mind control), but I'm wary.
- Talos IV. I don't know. "The Menagerie" is probably one of my favourite Trek episodes of all time. But I couldn't care less about returning there. Also: The alien make-up on this show is baaaaad. The Talosians from the teaser didn't look as horrible as the Klingons from S1 - but, much like the new Andorians, Orions and Tellarites - it's an utterly un-impressive update, that manages to make an iconic design look somehow super generic
- So this is going to be the temporal cold war? Interesting that the "evil" future fraction seems to be made out of Starfleet technology. I really don't have a strong opinion wether I like the direction this arc is going or not. It's not really an intruiging mystery - but the journey toward it is so far pretty fine. So even if the "reveal" of the mystery will fall short of expectations - I can forgive that. I enjoy this ride much more than S1's klingon arc, and this entire show isn't based on this reveal (like "Lost" or "BSG" were). So far it hasn't really grabbed me - but there is nothing making me not like it eigher
- Emperor Mirror Georgiou. Did I mentioned I fucking hate her character? My love for Michelle Yeoh, and her complete fun chewing the scenery make it somewhat bearable. But everything that's written for her is utter garbage. Also, she now knows the future from the Defiant? Have fun explaining THAT to your non-super-Trek-nerd friends!
- I know this is minor, but referencing "Control" from Section 31 constantly really gets on my nerves. It was a tremendously stupid idea for a non-canon book, that clashes with the entirety of what Trek stands for and should forever be ignored. And even if they don't fully canonize it - I fucking hate even the references.
- Similarly - S31 as a whole. I thought it was a neat twist on DIS that S31 was both sanctioned by Starfleet, but also not completely rotten to the core - but rather good guys misguided to do bad things. Having them be the straight-forward dooofus "evil" spy agency (a la "Into Darkness") - and THEN having them be so widespread as to be essentially Starfleets "regular"intelligence - is really insulting
- Spock - I still don't know wether Ethan Peck is going to be a believable Spock. In this episode he definitely wasn't. But that's not on him to blame - the entire "Search for Spock"-arc is a big pile of rubbish that is undermining an otherwiese strong season arc.
So, yeah. After some excellent episodes, this one still was good. But I can't help but feel a bit of a major letdown about all the canon-connection. IMO when this show focuses on it's own elements, it can be brilliant. Let them! I don't want them to revise old Trek lore - I want them to add NEW lore!
Final grade: I'm not using the x/10 system here, because this episode doesn't really stand on it's own - it's mostly un-impressive set-ups. Like TNG's "Chain of Command", if the arc turns out to be great, I will greatly enjoy this episode on rewatch. If not - not.
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Didn't "The Cage" happen two years prior to Discovery?
It might not be reference. Control is a name used in many a Spy series. The name Control in the novels was reference itself to that.
Spock in a snow suit.
It was earth. You can make out North America.
I don’t think the Red Angel was connected to whoever modified the probe.
They didn’t give coordinates in that episode. They’re from a non-canon source.
Noting says we won’t learn more about her because of this.
Three or four. "The Cage" was in 2254. DSC might still be in 2257, but I feel like it has to be 2258 by now.
3 now.
I could have done with less of the stylish segues. I was segued out. Gosh though, doesn't the show just look beautiful? Some of the most polished looking TV Sci-fi ever in my opinion.
I felt like two good episodes could have been dragged out of that and on the whole it felt a little rushed. I'm kind of disappointed Michael has gone rogue again but there it is. I continue to love Pike. Could do with less of Tyler.
Not bad though. If that's one of the worst of the season then the season is in good shape. Also so happy we are getting Season 3.
I felt like two good episodes could have been dragged out of that and on the whole it felt a little rushed. I'm kind of disappointed Michael has gone rogue again but there it is. I continue to love Pike. Could do with less of Tyler.
Not bad though. If that's one of the worst of the season then the season is in good shape. Also so happy we are getting Season 3.
I doubt Section 31 staged the attack, unless they like dressing up as fake Klingons, they are more underhand, they probably made sure the colonies defenses were sabotaged to make it easier for Klingons to attack the colony, if warmongering Admiral Marcus exists in this AU he was probably behind it all.
Perhaps this is why the Organians step in 10 years later, recognising that both sides needed a kick up the backside and this is probably when Section 31 goes underground after their evil deeds are exposed by MU Pippa!
OR
Burnham finds out what Section 31 did and with the assistance of the Discovery crew bring down Section 31, who go underground with MU Pippa pulling the strings.
I honestly think in a certain way this season is too polished.
Basically good art comes with limitations. Earlier Trek could not really have that much in the way of high-octane action or crazy visuals due to both technological limitations and budgetary constraints. As a result, we ended up getting a lot of scenes with people talking in rooms and corridors. A lot of the best character work in Trek happened as a result.
With the incredibly high budgets, modern VFX, and more 'fancy" direction, Discovery doesn't have the same limitations. A lot of the story can be told visually. This results in a show which looks beautiful (when shakycam isn't making me nauseated) but it also means that a lot less of the "connective tissue" of dialogue is needed in the average Discovery episode.
Okay....this morning I went back and replayed that scene at speed and then frame-by-frame. They did not have Stamets in that scene. Now I am a bit freaked-out, because I went back into my memory and did a sort of frame-by-frame almost like Harrison Ford's character did in 'Patriot Games' to recover his memory of the girl with the red hair in the Jeep. What I 'saw' was this:
Stamets aiming a phaser at Ash. Stamets had his head cocked over onto his right shoulder and he had a very smirky expression on his face. Like he had Ash dead-to-rights and there was no way Ash could get away. Stamets was messing with him....re-adjusting his aim in a jaunty, devil-may-care way. It reminded me of what Eddie Murphy does in a scene in one of his movies....can't remember which one....but very similar. Head cocked to the side when aiming his gun, re-adjusting his aim in a smarmy way, etc.
So....where the hell did that come from? At that point in the episode, it's not exactly intuitive that Stamets would even end up beamed over to the shuttle for any reason.
In an alternate universe, though, it would make a bit of sense....Stamets getting even for Voq killing Culber. And even with Culber back, if he is not the same as he was....
Anyhoo....
On another subject, what was done with the probe reminded me of this guy:
I did not like the episode. It was a mess. And the trope, whose name eludes me, which was demonstrated by Spock should be taken out back, shot, and buried. Many writers in entertainment do not have an understanding of people with issues related to brain functions and of the relationships and connections these people have with the real world. It is painful to watch them stumbling in the dark.
I am not emotionally invested in these characters. There is for me a measure of distance, of detachment, between myself and the characters. I feel cold towards them. In what way do they act like people in the real world? I keep watching the show, as I am emotionally invested in the Star Trek universe and I like learning about it. If I did not have that investment, I would stop watching the show, as I have done with Doctor Who and, to a degree, with Star Wars. It seems to me that the three biggest sci-fi franchises of my youth have gone in directions which have left me angered, frustrated, and bewildered. I am enjoying the Orville, as it has elements of those franchises, elements which were the reasons I became involved with them one way or another. Yet this enjoyment is tempered by the fact that I do not know if Orville will have a future.
Could they be any less subtle with the name of the Section 31 ship, giving it a name which automatically has a connection to another intelligence gathering network?
I am not emotionally invested in these characters. There is for me a measure of distance, of detachment, between myself and the characters. I feel cold towards them. In what way do they act like people in the real world? I keep watching the show, as I am emotionally invested in the Star Trek universe and I like learning about it. If I did not have that investment, I would stop watching the show, as I have done with Doctor Who and, to a degree, with Star Wars. It seems to me that the three biggest sci-fi franchises of my youth have gone in directions which have left me angered, frustrated, and bewildered. I am enjoying the Orville, as it has elements of those franchises, elements which were the reasons I became involved with them one way or another. Yet this enjoyment is tempered by the fact that I do not know if Orville will have a future.
Could they be any less subtle with the name of the Section 31 ship, giving it a name which automatically has a connection to another intelligence gathering network?
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