Star Trek Discovery Renewed For Season 3

[Turtletrekker]

I remember when Agents of SHIELD got renewed for its second season there were people who claimed it was only because "Marvel was too big to fail", or "there was too much at stake" or "Disney forced them to do it*", and other ridiculous fanboy theories They started production on their seventh season this week.

*True, Disney did intercede for the show's fifth season, but it's renewal for seasons 6 and 7 was solely on the basis of its streaming strength.

 

[Noname Given]

But the writing styles, sensibilities, and culture was FAR different in 1967 than it is now, as was the audience level of sophistication for such things. For its time, it was very sophisticated to hide allegorical messages in science-fiction presentations. Today, not so much.

Um, the original "Rod Serling's The Twilight Zone" and "The Outer Limits (cica 1963)" would disagree with you. It wasn't common, yes, but it was hardly something 'new' that Star Trek alone did in the 1960ies. You also had socially conscious dram shows like "Julia" doing it too in that era.

 

[Kor]

I'm not sure about "audience sophistication" these days. This is still the era of trashy reality TV, after all.

I remember when Agents of SHIELD got renewed for its second season there were people who claimed it was only because "Marvel was too big to fail", or "there was too much at stake" or "Disney forced them to do it*", and other ridiculous fanboy theories They started production on their seventh season this week.

*True, Disney did intercede for the show's fifth season, but it's renewal for seasons 6 and 7 was solely on the basis of its streaming strength.

To be fair, Agents of Shield S1 was like watching paint dry.

Kor

 

[Alan Roi]

If they really wanted her to be the star, then they shouldn't have cast Captains who are clearly better actors than she is. All the best scenes in STD are when she is NOT the center of attention, like the secondary character that she is supposed to be.

Sure. And on that topic how dare they mak Sarah Michelle Geller the star of BVS when their casting Tony Head? What was Lucas thinking casting Hammill and Ford and then putting them in the same movie with Alec Guinness and Peter Cushing. What were these people thinking? You never, never cast excellent supporting actors who might dare show off their decades of experience when you're lead is much younger than they are?

 

[Turtletrekker]

To be fair, Agents of Shield S1 was like watching paint dry.

Kor

I would counter by saying that that description only applied to the first half of the first season, but that's a discussion for another thread. I think my point was that ridiculous fan conspiracy theories are far from just a Star Trek fan thing.

 

[Alan Roi]

Um, the original "Rod Serling's The Twilight Zone" and "The Outer Limits (cica 1963)" would disagree with you. It wasn't common, yes, but it was hardly something 'new' that Star Trek alone did in the 1960ies. You also had socially conscious dram shows like "Julia" doing it too in that era.

The Fugitive is a prime example of this. I was amazed how the first season measures up to modern TV. You could probably make it today with barely changing a lot of the original scripts other than adding cellphones.

 

[Vger23]

Um, the original "Rod Serling's The Twilight Zone" and "The Outer Limits (cica 1963)" would disagree with you. It wasn't common, yes, but it was hardly something 'new' that Star Trek alone did in the 1960ies. You also had socially conscious dram shows like "Julia" doing it too in that era.

Oh, I totally agree. I didn't say Star Trek was the only / first to do it. I just said that it was that era's version of "sophisticated" that now is commonplace.

I just binged 3 episodes of original TZ last night, BTW...great show!

 

[eschaton]

Personally, my favorite types of episodes are the character dramas like "City on the Edge of Forever" and "The Visitor," which are very human and are quite emotionally moving, but really don't have any kind of sociopolitical message that the writer is trying to prove to you.

Kor

Those are also my favorite. But I'd argue that character drama has been relatively absent from Discovery as well, though they edged into it a bit with episodes like An Obol for Charon this season. Not surprisingly, it was probably my favorite of the season to date. If only some of the character beats (like Burnham and Saru's suddenly close relationship) felt more earned.

It's important to note though that most of the great "character focus" episodes of Trek are also high concept to some degree. The "slice of life" episodes - or ones where a sibling or parent is suddenly revealed - aren't generally that warmly received.

 

[Vger23]

Personally, my favorite types of episodes are the character dramas like "City on the Edge of Forever" and "The Visitor," which are very human and are quite emotionally moving, but really don't have any kind of sociopolitical message that the writer is trying to prove to you.

Kor

I agree...these are my favorites as well.

However, I'd argue that they work extraordinarily well because they are an exception, not a rule. In a series with 7 seasons at 26 episodes per season, you might have 3 or 4 of these in an entire run of a show. I'd argue that some series didn't even have a single one.

DSC has had 21 total episodes to date...so it's very early to be looking for the next "Inner Light" or "Visitor," especially when they have so precious few episodes per season to tell their arc story.

EDIT:

I think they tried really hard a couple of times, though. "Si Vis Pacem" and "Obol for Charon" both were valiant attempts at this, but the execution on "Pacem" wasn't up to snuff, and "Charon" was not straightforward enough.

 

[Turtletrekker]

I agree...these are my favorites as well.

However, I'd argue that they work extraordinarily well because they are an exception, not a rule. In a series with 7 seasons at 26 episodes per season, you might have 3 or 4 of these in an entire run of a show. I'd argue that some series didn't even have a single one.

DSC has had 21 total episodes to date...so it's very early to be looking for the next "Inner Light" or "Visitor," especially when they have so precious few episodes per season to tell their arc story.

EDIT:

I think they tried really hard a couple of times, though. "Si Vis Pacem" and "Obol for Charon" both were valiant attempts at this, but the execution on "Pacem" wasn't up to snuff, and "Charon" was not straightforward enough.

I think stories like City and Visitor work as well as they did because they were the only story being told in the episode. I do sometimes wish that Discovery would settle on a single story line for an episode every now and again. In my opinion, this is what hurt both Pacam and Obal.

 

[XCV330]

I agree...these are my favorites as well.

However, I'd argue that they work extraordinarily well because they are an exception, not a rule. In a series with 7 seasons at 26 episodes per season, you might have 3 or 4 of these in an entire run of a show. I'd argue that some series didn't even have a single one.

DSC has had 21 total episodes to date...so it's very early to be looking for the next "Inner Light" or "Visitor," especially when they have so precious few episodes per season to tell their arc story.

EDIT:

I think they tried really hard a couple of times, though. "Si Vis Pacem" and "Obol for Charon" both were valiant attempts at this, but the execution on "Pacem" wasn't up to snuff, and "Charon" was not straightforward enough.

Thats a good point. Inner Light and The Visitor work in part so well because you have a lot invested in Picard, and the Siskos.

Those episode take place in season 5 and 4 of their series' run, respectively. Even though both stories take place well outside of their normal scenery and storytelling range, they might not have appealed as much as a first season offering. I think they could have worked by season 2. But the most time the better. The counter to that is maybe Carbon Creek where I think Enterprise finally got to shed a bit of its wrapping and allow you to get invested in a character. T'Pol's care for her grandmother's relic item was very touching at the end. It filled out a character who for a one and half seasons was dangerously looking like Token Catsuit Filler.

I will maintain DSC's first iconic story like that, it's City on the Edge of Forever/Inner Light/Visitor is Calypso. So maybe they did it in between season 1 and 2 but with characters no one was ever invested in before (or perhaps in a next few weeks when we(disrupted by red angel static)ora. But Obol for Charon is right up there with those episodes, in my opinion anyway.

 

[Kor]

Perhaps they should abandon the A/B structure that's become so commonplace in contemporary television.

Kor

 

[Vger23]

I think stories like City and Visitor work as well as they did because they were the only story being told in the episode. I do sometimes wish that Discovery would settle on a single story line for an episode every now and again. In my opinion, this is what hurt both Pacam and Obal.

Totally agree...It can get so hyperactive sometimes

Perhaps they should abandon the A/B structure that's become so commonplace in contemporary television.

Kor

Agree, although in fairness, S1's episodes were not typically A/B plot lines, whereas S2 it is much more common.

I have said before that S1 suffered from a messy arc populated with pretty good straight-line stories. S2 seems to have a much more straight-line arc, but with messier individual stories.

 

[Succubint]

I'm one of those weird fans who never thought the City on the Edge of Forever was all that hot. I know it's seen as one of the most classic awesome TOS episodes but I found it pretty meh. Oh well.

I love the Inner Light and The Visitor, however. Those were more memorable for me and yes they worked, in part because we are already invested in Picard and the Sisko family by the time they aired in their respective series.

Still, I do think it's possible to hit a home run in terms of a thought provoking Trek episode in the first few seasons. The Measure of a Man is an example in TNG and for me, Duet was for DS9.

An Obol for Charon came close for me. The Sounds of Thunder did too. This is a good sign, I think, that the stories they want to tell this season are starting to resonate with some viewers.

 

[Vger23]

I'm one of those weird fans who never thought the City on the Edge of Forever was all that hot. I know it's seen as one of the most classic awesome TOS episodes but I found it pretty meh. Oh well.

I love the Inner Light and The Visitor, however. Those were more memorable for me and yes they worked, in part because we are already invested in Picard and the Sisko family by the time they aired in their respective series.

Still, I do think it's possible to hit a home run in terms of a thought provoking Trek episode in the first few seasons. The Measure of a Man is an example in TNG and for me, Duet was for DS9.

An Obol for Charon came close for me. The Sounds of Thunder did too. This is a good sign, I think, that the stories they want to tell this season are starting to resonate with some viewers.

It's interesting, because I've always (first run and after many re-watches) found Duet and Measure of a Man to be horrifically over-rated installments, despite recognizing that I'm in the vast minority in that opinion.

 

[Campe]

It's interesting, because I've always (first run and after many re-watches) found Duet and Measure of a Man to be horrifically over-rated installments, despite recognizing that I'm in the vast minority in that opinion.

I still like "Duet."
Agree with you on "Measure of a Man." Leaves me a little cold.

 

[BillJ]

I love the Inner Light and The Visitor, however.

Both of those put me to sleep.

 

[Vger23]

I still like "Duet."
Agree with you on "Measure of a Man." Leaves me a little cold.

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like them both. But I don't hold them in the same "hallowed halls" esteem that most do.

They're 3 or 4 stars out of 5 for me. Not bad, but not classics.

5/5 are City, Inner Light, Visitor, Pale Moonlight, Best of Both Worlds, etc.

 

[Campe]

Don't get me wrong, I definitely like them both. But I don't hold them in the same "hallowed halls" esteem that most do.

They're 3 or 4 stars out of 5 for me. Not bad, but not classics.

5/5 are City, Inner Light, Visitor, Pale Moonlight, Best of Both Worlds, etc.

And even I have to say BOBW2 just isn't that great. Its passable, sure, and leaves you guessing until the end. But that cliffhanger in part 1 though makes that episode classic.

 

[drt]

I still don't think the problem is Martin-Green. I think it is the writers not knowing what to do with the character.

I think part of that issue is the “raised on Vulcan” aspect to the character. Obviously, when they were creating the show they wanted another “logical character who discovers their humanity” like Spock/Data/Seven. Martin-Green is much better when they allow her to be human in one-on-ones with Saru and Tilly, than as a Vulcan exposition delivery device in her scenes on the bridge, etc. I’m not sure if that is more the fault of the actor, writers or director (probably a bit of all them).