Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x06 - "The Sound of Thunder"

[Gov Kodos]

David Bowie should be the supreme intelligence. With Tilly's fascination with his music, TOS establishing a counter culture movement, and even folks like Tom Paris long after, Trek has established a fascination with the 20th century the way we have a fascination for Arthurian Pageantry. Kate Bush is the Red Angel.

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[oberth]

Yeah. ID has been used as a euphamism by creationists to soft-peddle muddlying the waters regarding evolution. But the way it is typically presented (as a "designer" who "guided" evolution) is entirely in line with what the Ancient Humanoids did. IRL there's even some athiest IDers they have historically trotted out for exactly those reasons.

Similarly, IRL it's considered by some physicists to be plausible that humanity in the future could actually create entirely new "baby universes" which could then develop completely independently of our own (have their own mass, flow of time, etc). Thus it's possible our universe was - literally - created and has a creator without god being involved at all.

got a link? sam carter doesn't count

 

[fireproof78]

ever tried to sell that to the guys who came up with id?

Sure. Have discussed it at length with others who believe in ID but are agnostic or atheist. I've read other works by people who subscribe to ID but do not take any sort of religious belief with it.

It's not a black or white issue, from what I've read.

Yeah. ID has been used as a euphamism by creationists to soft-peddle muddlying the waters regarding evolution. But the way it is typically presented (as a "designer" who "guided" evolution) is entirely in line with what the Ancient Humanoids did. IRL there's even some athiest IDers they have historically trotted out for exactly those reasons.

I've see many sides of this debate. Yes, I am aware of the euphemism, but also aware (as noted above) of agnostic and atheist ID subscribers.

Now, I'll not engage in the merits of that debate here (as it is both outside the scope of this thread and will end up very poorly as it touches on religious and spiritual subjects) but in the Star Trek universe, with several "higher intelligences" out there the concept of ID should not be that offensive.

 

[oberth]

David Bowie should be the supreme intelligence. With Tilly's fascination with his music, TOS establishing a counter culture movement, and even folks like Tom Paris long after, Trek has established a fascination with the 20th century the way we have a fascination for Arthurian Pageantry. Kate Bush is the Red Angel.

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no way

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[Alan Roi]

David Bowie should be the supreme intelligence. With Tilly's fascination with his music, TOS establishing a counter culture movement, and even folks like Tom Paris long after, Trek has established a fascination with the 20th century the way we have a fascination for Arthurian Pageantry. Kate Bush is the Red Angel.

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I love me some Kate Bush most of the time, but honestly that cover makes William Shatner's seem Grammy worthy. Also, Red Angel does not appear to be wielding a ukelele.

 

[Gov Kodos]

no way

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[eschaton]

got a link? sam carter doesn't count

Presuming you mean the latter, see here.

 

[Noname Given]

Wow had no idea the love for CBS All Access. Heaven forbid the thought!
So how do you feel about the main topic of a new series centered around Pike and the Enterprise?

It's not "love for CBSAA" - it's a practical understanding of the BUSINESS DECISION CBS management has made RE: They'll use the Star Trek IP to grow the subscriber base. <--- That's their current business model for the Star Trek IP.
^^^
Put a Star Trek series 'over the air' on their CBS network and that business model is diluted and possibly falls completely apart.

 

[fireproof78]

It's not 'love for CBSAA" - it's a practical understanding of the BUSINESS DECISION CBS management has made RE: They'll use the Star Trek IP to grow the subscriber base. <--- That's their current business model for the Star Trek IP.
^^^
Put a Star Trek series 'over the air' on their CBS network and that business model is diluted and possibly falls completely apart.

This. I'm not over the top about this business decision, but I'm also not blind to the current market. CBS is in the business of building their audience and market share and streaming is the current way of doing so.

 

[XCV330]

ever tried to sell that to the guys who came up with id?

a broken watch is right twice a day. but no, they wouldn't like it, I suspect. still its just trek..

Yeah. ID has been used as a euphamism by creationists to soft-peddle muddlying the waters regarding evolution. But the way it is typically presented (as a "designer" who "guided" evolution) is entirely in line with what the Ancient Humanoids did. IRL there's even some athiest IDers they have historically trotted out for exactly those reasons.

Similarly, IRL it's considered by some physicists to be plausible that humanity in the future could actually create entirely new "baby universes" which could then develop completely independently of our own (have their own mass, flow of time, etc). Thus it's possible our universe was - literally - created and has a creator without god being involved at all.

If after a few hundred years of searching future humans find alien intelligence to be too absent in the universe to make intelligent life capable of continuous technological improvement (my arbitrary cutoff for "us" vs neanderthals and really smart dolphins) plausible then future scientist faced with the irrevocable certainty that they exist might have to address an ID hypothesis. In that case being unique seems less likely.

Why random origin without intelligent operation would be more plausible than your example of multiple iterations of holographic development, or some form of ID, or a big monolith telling hominids how to use tools better, isn't entirely clear. The main issue for me with ID is that I have never seen i done from a scientific perspective but rather from people attempting to formulate a hypothesis to defend a belief, which is bad science.

 

[eschaton]

Why random origin without intelligent operation would be more plausible than your example of multiple iterations of holographic development, or some form of ID, or a big monolith telling hominids how to use tools better, isn't entirely clear. The main issue for me with ID is that I have never seen i done from a scientific perspective but rather from people attempting to formulate a hypothesis to defend a belief, which is bad science.

I mean, it's the whole "invisible teapot orbiting Mars" thing. Basically you can't disprove many of these hypothesis, so the logical prior is that the most "mundane" explanation for something has to be true.

I do think it can be taken too far however - particularly when it comes to searching for evidence of alien life. I mean, consider the whole Oumuamua debate. The first object is detected entering the solar system from the outside. It's unusually long and thin. It managed to use the sun as a gravitational slingshot, and even mysteriously picked up speed after passing the sun. A few non-crank scientists have suggested that maybe the simplest explanation it's an automated alien probe, but the general belief is we can only believe that to be the case once every natural explanation is exhausted. The implication here is intelligent aliens are, if not an invisible teapot orbiting Mars, unlikely enough that you have have a very high burden of proof.

 

[Jadeb]

I mean, it's the whole "invisible teapot orbiting Mars" thing. Basically you can't disprove many of these hypothesis, so the logical prior is that the most "mundane" explanation for something has to be true.

I do think it can be taken too far however - particularly when it comes to searching for evidence of alien life. I mean, consider the whole Oumuamua debate. The first object is detected entering the solar system from the outside. It's unusually long and thin. It managed to use the sun as a gravitational slingshot, and even mysteriously picked up speed after passing the sun. A few non-crank scientists have suggested that maybe the simplest explanation it's an automated alien probe, but the general belief is we can only believe that to be the case once every natural explanation is exhausted. The implication here is intelligent aliens are, if not an invisible teapot orbiting Mars, unlikely enough that you have have a very high burden of proof.

The teapot from Mars has already arrived on Earth:

 

[oberth]

Presuming you mean the latter, see here.

thx

 

[DaveyNY]

Thank you ........... I was thinking this last night and it occurred to me that they were all getting carouseled... Good catch.

I found this poster online and is that a ship near Tilly's shoulder? I think someone brought this up in another thread. Anyway circled it on the picture.

View attachment 8294

Me
And it's kinda funny that LOGAN'S RUN is now on NETFLIX.
I watched it last night for the umpteenth time.

 

[Alan Roi]

Presuming you mean the latter, see here.

Great! That mean's we'll all be able to go on galactic cruises in our offices. Get me Zarniwoop!

 

[Jackson_Roykirk]

I mean, it's the whole "invisible teapot orbiting Mars" thing.

I've always been partial to the invisible dragon in Carl Sagan's garage.

 

[oberth]

Presuming you mean the latter, see here.

there's actually a short story by dutch sf author rein blijstra: het planetarium van otze otzinga (1962) which deals with that. the university he works for demands that childish stuff to be terminated - in the end a cleaning woman triggers nuclear explosions all over his universe just when a guy named eitze eitzinga (sp?) starts to build a planetarium of his own.

 

[XCV330]

I mean, it's the whole "invisible teapot orbiting Mars" thing. Basically you can't disprove many of these hypothesis, so the logical prior is that the most "mundane" explanation for something has to be true.

I do think it can be taken too far however - particularly when it comes to searching for evidence of alien life. I mean, consider the whole Oumuamua debate. The first object is detected entering the solar system from the outside. It's unusually long and thin. It managed to use the sun as a gravitational slingshot, and even mysteriously picked up speed after passing the sun. A few non-crank scientists have suggested that maybe the simplest explanation it's an automated alien probe, but the general belief is we can only believe that to be the case once every natural explanation is exhausted. The implication here is intelligent aliens are, if not an invisible teapot orbiting Mars, unlikely enough that you have have a very high burden of proof.

I have felt for some time that the way many in science have handled the possibility of extrasolar intelligence has been so conservative as to be a hindrance on research. Oumuamua is a good example. Tabby's star may be another. However until and if there has been at least one irrefutable proof of an alien civilization, the concept will continue to be treated with the same abject derision that the scientific community has had for in the past for opens doors that intellectual myopia kept them willfully blind to.

 

[Turtletrekker]

The teapot from Mars has already arrived on Earth:

I thought it was genius that we found David Bowie's character "sitting in a tin can".

 

[saddestmoon]

I found this poster online and is that a ship near Tilly's shoulder? I think someone brought this up in another thread. Anyway circled it on the picture.

View attachment 8294

IMO, this ‘shoulder’ ship looks to be either:

- a single nacelled starship, with a half-circle saucer

Or

- Spock’s Jellyfish starship - more TOS than Kelvin (I realise this is something of a stretch considering the quality of the image, but still...)

Hmmm...