So what tuvok and neelix have no rights technically they did not die
This is not harvesting organs this is reversing an accident.
Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico
- Thread starter Gabriel
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This is not harvesting organs this is reversing an accident.
They were dead, or at least had a terminal condition, and no, they do not have right for 'cure' if acquiring that cure requires killing another person against their will. So yes, it is same as harvesting organs.
No they weren’t dead they were combined into a mutilated thing (along with flowers). Because if they were really dead then they would not have been able to bring them back no matter what the sacrifice. The Federation has only been able to bring people back from death by only by a couple of minutes. Tuvix was around for several weeks so it was not death I like to think of it that they were both inhabiting the same body. It would explain why to Tuvix had basically both of their personalities. Also I assumed I had tuvix done this willingly you would have no problem with it.
Also by the way Janeway has shown to be the captain that wouldn’t really except being relieved of command I’m not saying that’s a good thing but
That would’ve been interesting to see.
Back on point. Tuvix was created by the unwilling sacrifice of Tuvok and Neelix
Also I have a question how do you explain to tuvoks family. since in a way he lives in tuvix.
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They ceased to be, though the condition was reversible. They were basically very, very sick.
Assuming that he wouln't have been pressured to make that choice, then it would have been fine. It would have been his choice to sacrifice himself in order to save two others.
It doesn't matter. Once he was created and was a fully functioning sapient being, he should have enjoyed rights as such.
You explain them what happened. As rational and ethical beings they would certainly understand.
Well Sacrificing them for somebody else. Tuvix was created by combining two people who did it unwilling. That is unacceptable.
By the way just because they would understand doesn’t make it right.
Not something she isn’t all that “bad” I mean whatever Neelix lung was stolen instead of ripping it out the aliens body she basically was ready to let them go. This was a gray spot.
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you’re contradicting yourself just a little bit sick doesn’t mean dead. And even sick people still have rights. They weren’t dead they were still alive they were just combined In a unatural way.
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Tuvok and Neelix were not in suspended animation in Tuvix. They were not like Barlcay in the particle soup of the transporter deconstructed but still conscious. Someone remind me; did Neelix and Tuvok remember anything from their time as Tuvix?
Tuvix was like Frankenstein['s monster] -- a new being made of the parts of others no longer alive/cognizant themselves. Right here, right now, Tuvok and Neelix aren't thinking and feeling self-aware beings but Tuvix is. And Janeway's duty is to protect him even if it isn't convenient for her ship, even if she misses her friends, and especially because he has no one else to defend him in the whole universe. Right then right there, Tuvix is a being in his own right -- with his own right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
It may have been an accident that made him, but that wasn't, by definition, in their control. What they did then was. What they did then was harvest Tuvix to recreate Tuvok and Neelix, no different than, as mentioned, if the state (or some corporation) started harvesting the organs/lives of some of its citizens (or employees/shareholders) to help larger numbers of others alive now or yet to be.
Tuvix was like Frankenstein['s monster] -- a new being made of the parts of others no longer alive/cognizant themselves. Right here, right now, Tuvok and Neelix aren't thinking and feeling self-aware beings but Tuvix is. And Janeway's duty is to protect him even if it isn't convenient for her ship, even if she misses her friends, and especially because he has no one else to defend him in the whole universe. Right then right there, Tuvix is a being in his own right -- with his own right to LIFE, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness.
It may have been an accident that made him, but that wasn't, by definition, in their control. What they did then was. What they did then was harvest Tuvix to recreate Tuvok and Neelix, no different than, as mentioned, if the state (or some corporation) started harvesting the organs/lives of some of its citizens (or employees/shareholders) to help larger numbers of others alive now or yet to be.
In Star Trek where it is possible (in certain circumstance) to bring back dead people the distinction is unclear.
Yes. Those rights do not include others being murdered in order to save them.
Yes, this, absolutely!
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Well i’m going to be a big person and say that you guys have change my mind. Thinking it over in my head over the past few post, I have realized it is wrong. so i apologize if I disgusted you in any way. I took my position because I really like tuvok and neelix. And to be completely honest I found tuvix a little freaky. I’ve decided to explain to the best of my ability why Janeway did it.
To Janeway she had multiple years of knowing what tuvok was capable of and about a year of knowing what neelix was capable of, she didn’t have that with tuvix. They were her friends and she’s a human being. Humans tend to save their friends are over others. That doesn’t make it right but it’s human nature. The doctor went thru this in latent image. He saved the friend over somebody else. I’m not saying these two incidents are comparable but I use this as an example of human nature. She felt she had to speak for her friends. She was probably thinking about this incident in the season five opener about all the things that happened to her crew when she decide to stay in the Delta quadrant.
So I guess give her a break because remember captains can be wrong too.
Although I think we can all agree that this was just a sucky episode and they should have written it that way that Tuvix in the end chooses to do this, like how sim does it.
Well least now I know why always avoided the episode.
Well i’m going to be a big person and say that you guys have change my mind. Thinking it over in my head over the past few post, I have realized it is wrong. so i apologize if I disgusted you in any way. I took my position because I really like tuvok and neelix. And to be completely honest I found tuvix a little freaky. I’ve decided to explain to the best of my ability why Janeway did it.
To Janeway she had multiple years of knowing what tuvok was capable of and about a year ofknowing what neelix was capable of, she didn’t have that with tuvix. They were her friends andshe’s a human being. Humans tend to save their friends are over others. That doesn’t make it right but it’s human nature. The doctor went thru thisin latent image. He saved the friend over somebody else. I’m not saying these two incidents are comparable but I use this as an example ofhuman nature. She felt she had to speak for her friends. She was probably thinking about this incident in the season five opener about all thethings that happened to her crew when she decide to stay in the Delta quadrant.
So I guess give her a break because remembercaptains can be wrong too.
Although I think we can all agree that this was just a sucky episode and they should have written it that way that Tuvix in the end chooses to do this, like how sim does it.
Well least now I know why always avoided theepisode. I copied this so you both could be notified of my post
This must be some sort of internet first! No one changes their mind on the internet discussion boards! But no hard feelings, it was an interesting discussion!
Yep, it is humanly understandable, it is just that especially as a Starfleet officer she (and the rest of the crew) should have done the right thing regardless of their personal attachments.
Yep, that would have been a much better ending.
Yeah no hard feelings either and thank you for change my mind. Unlike other people I know I’m a big enough person to say whenever I’m wrong
Yeah it was a very interesting discussion my mind definitely did not get dull today
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Also considering theese the same people who wrote most of voyager I’m not surprised. They’re not the best writers. I mean they did make some good episodes but they basically threw Canon out the window. Because if a powerful galaxy class starship cannot destroy the borg then how the hell can an intrepid class can
I think they tried to come up with an interesting idea using the transporter but didn't think it fully through. They were always going to get Tuvok and Neelix back because they were series regulars but doing it by force wasn't right.
You can look at it in a utilitarian way -- that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few -- but that's a different deal than is set up in the Social Contract as I understand it. It might be interesting to explore alien societies that have different values and that do harvest organs and do other such things....that's kind of like the Borg, but not quite. The Borg have no individuality, and it'd be curious to see a people who screw over their neighbors and live with the fear of being screwed over themselves in the interests of the state, corporation, or other larger systems.
You can look at it in a utilitarian way -- that the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few -- but that's a different deal than is set up in the Social Contract as I understand it. It might be interesting to explore alien societies that have different values and that do harvest organs and do other such things....that's kind of like the Borg, but not quite. The Borg have no individuality, and it'd be curious to see a people who screw over their neighbors and live with the fear of being screwed over themselves in the interests of the state, corporation, or other larger systems.
Well, there's the Vidians who are notorious organ harvesters. However, the Think Tank guy said that they were cured of their disease. If true it means that the Think Tank is really powerful since the Vidian phage had resisted all cures for two thousand years!!! I wonder what they asked the Vidians in exchange for that.
What any normal person for curing a virus has been going around for 2000 years would probably ask for like a planet or like a fortune or something. But I think the think tank for all we know will just ask for a recipe or something.
I'm wondering if I've got the Tuvix thing wrong. So, so what if it was an accident that made Tuvix? Is saying that it was "an act of God" passing the responsibility of saving Tuvok and Neelix off? So if we trip and fall and break our necks (and it was a trip we couldn't avoid) a doctor who could save us should let us die because, meh, Random Chance made it happen?
What if we think of it as a rescue mission? Tuvok and Neelix are out there, in the realm of possibility, able to be saved; are we to just let them go because 1 life that just got here who was an accident, doesn't want to sacrifice himself for 2 others? ...as I type that, I'm thinking YES WE ARE because we're not assholes, making this guy's existence something out of a horror story. Nobody cares about you and we're all going to end your pitiful existence.
But why is it that when I ask myself if if were me and my captain can save me, I wouldn't care if some chimera of me and another guy has to be sacrificed for it? It's MY body he's walking around in, and I want to live. I'm not joining the crew in the first place if they won't agree to do everything they can to get me back from whatever mad adventure they've lost me on. ...maybe it's just my first reaction. I'll see things differently if I think about it again in a few minutes. Maybe I'm afraid if I'm okay with this, my captain (the system) won't do its best to help prevent my death in the first place.
What if we think of it as a rescue mission? Tuvok and Neelix are out there, in the realm of possibility, able to be saved; are we to just let them go because 1 life that just got here who was an accident, doesn't want to sacrifice himself for 2 others? ...as I type that, I'm thinking YES WE ARE because we're not assholes, making this guy's existence something out of a horror story. Nobody cares about you and we're all going to end your pitiful existence.
But why is it that when I ask myself if if were me and my captain can save me, I wouldn't care if some chimera of me and another guy has to be sacrificed for it? It's MY body he's walking around in, and I want to live. I'm not joining the crew in the first place if they won't agree to do everything they can to get me back from whatever mad adventure they've lost me on. ...maybe it's just my first reaction. I'll see things differently if I think about it again in a few minutes. Maybe I'm afraid if I'm okay with this, my captain (the system) won't do its best to help prevent my death in the first place.
There's nothing wrong in saving the life of anyone as long as it's not at the expense of someone else. If your resuscitation depends on sacrificing someone else, someone who's unwilling to be sacrificed at that, I mean even if the person was willing I still think it would be wrong, like it is wrong to buy organs from living people who are so poor and desperate that they are willing to accept mutilation for a little money. If it's is wrong to do the latter and I believe it is, it is even more wrong to do that to an unwilling being. What Janeway did is just murder. It's cold-blooded premeditated murder! If there was any justice in Starfleet and there can't be because it is just a show and justice is just a fleeting incoherent thing in that context submitted to the vagaries of undeterminate writers. So if there was any justice in that fictional world she would incur the punishment for murder in the first degree with aggravated circumstances because she thought about it and did it in full knowledge and responsibility and using her power as a leader.
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