Who is the better captain Picard or Jellico

Citation please
Also here is a question for you: is jellico a good captain? Not if he is better than picard but is he a good captain.

 

Hydroponics 17:01

I'm not sure. He's competent enough to be 1) Starfleet officer, 2) a captain at that, 3) of a starship, 4) is the Starfleet expert in the Cardassians (why wasn't he on DS9?!), 5) given temporary (or longer) command of the flagship, 6) fulfilled his mission, 7) had the sense to swallow his pride when necessary, and 8) didn't forget to get Picard back. That's very good.

 

Not sure what that means

Yeah I’m in no way saying he is the best captain but he would fit my description of a good captain

 

Exodus 20:3

This is a TV show written by writers to make a point. What do you think the point of "Chain of Command" was?

It's funny because I think that part of the reason for Trek's failure with broader audiences is that it lost sight of part of that futuristic and cozy Enterprise esthetic. A lot of the research and development (or whatever it's called) done for TMP and TNG is some of the most inspiring stuff to come out of Star Trek. Thirty years later Seth MacFarlane launched a new show delighting in a lot of the Galaxy Class's amenities and half these boards are calling The Orville more Star Trek than Discovery.

That's the way you're framing it in your mind for yourself. There is no connection between being nice and failing. Nice is nice, not being a pushover or more to the point, incompetent. If anything, even if you're a total sociopath on the inside, people who can finesse interpersonal relationships have an edge over those who are a constant drag on everyone around them.

 

Yes but the line between nice and being a pushover can get thin. I find it a hard line to walk as someone who has to do that sometimes

 

In way it is and in a way it isn’t. I like the series although some don’t appreciate Mcfarlane humor. I see nothing wrong with it. Over the years I have come to like the enterprise (still think it looks a little like a duck) more than I did.
It just felt like a hotel and it didn’t seem as nibble as the constitution.

I don’t see how that verse is relevant

 

I watched a Chain of Command again for the umpteenth item and I don’t think Jellico was being unreasonable with his requests, particularly as he was prepping the ship for conflict.

I lost count of the number of eye rolls that Riker gave him soon after getting on the ship, which is something I have never noticed before.

 

The problem was, the characters were acting like Jellico was an unreasonable, cranky old geezer when he was portraying someone with a different command style than Picard - a hard-ass captain, to be sure, but not unreasonable when going on a war footing.
And his manufactured drama with Riker was just dumb.

 

My thought exactly. They did the same thing when Janeway decided to execute Tuvix for the horrible crime of existing!!! And everyone acted as if she was entitled to do that when nothing could be further from the truth. Not only had Tuvix committed no crime but the federation didn't allow the death penalty!

 

Yeah but what about neelix and Tuvok don’t they have rights. It was a transporter accident. I rather have Tuvok and neelix.
And I’m sure it wasn’t easy for Janeway but what about Tuvoks family. And you can’t say they were dead because the were combined into one but I don’t believe they died. And don’t forget it happened against there will.
It may not be a crime but that doesn’t make it right.

 

I would bet most everyone here has put in work in a job with a boss that takes the joy out of everything... or some manager makes you work overtime/ over the weekend on some project that may not have mattered in the grand scheme of things

 

^^^
And if you work on a Cruise Ship - you'd understandably get reactions like Riker and Geordi gave in such a situation - but the 1701-D is a Starfleet military vessel (and no, don't give me the "But in GR's 'Vision'..." bit as Starfleet IS the functioning military arm of the Federation and their ship's do operate under a military command structure); so yeah, Riker and Geordi were 100% unprofessional IN THAT neither could articulate good reasons why the Captain's orders shouldn't be followed even if it violated their personal comfort zones. On a military ship, the Captain has the job or you're all no good.

 

The problem is that neither Neelix nor Tuvok were dead (since they were able to bring them back) while Tuvix was effectively killed by Janeway's action. At no point in the episode does anyone say that there is a deadline for the recovery of Tuvok and Neelix, they could have done more research to try to save the three of them. Plus Tuvix was better than Tuvok and Neelix at their jobs!! Even for the sake of the ship, this execution was inexcusable. They present a solution that's horrible but we're supposed to accept it because the writers say we have to!!!

At least in the case of Sim, they had extenuating circumstances: The fate of the Earth was at stake, there was a deadline for the cure, and Trip was (apparently) indispensable to the war effort. None of that here!!!

 

Well I sure know how you feel about tuvok and neelix(although it would be a very hard decision to me). They both have loved ones and to leave them combined into a transport accident is just wrong. And by the way Janeway was lacking in good people and while tuvix would probably have been a good Officer there’s a saying: you can’t be to places at once. In fact militaruse and companys are realizing that today whenever they have to downsizing. The fact is to start by doing this Janeway got two crewmembers back. I know it sounds like a sucky deal but in the end you have to remember the vulcan saying: The needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one. Now I am not saying This was a simple choice, but at the end of the day this was an accident she corrected an error.
Also with Sim it’s also very interesting because Sim technically could’ve died even if they had made the treatment there was no guarantee. It’s a bigger problem was Archer because he knew exactly what he was doing. People don’t like Janeway for this but you have to remember something she’s the captain she has to make the hard decisions I’m sure she didn’t like this more than you, her being in explorer and not a military person. I have a feeling that at the season five opener she was probably think about this incident too when she was thinking about all the trouble she put her crew through to save a planet.

 

It was a fucking murder, that it saved two other people doesn't change that. If I kill you against your will and harvest your organs so that several sick people can be saved, then it is still a murder. This episode is one of the biggest ethics fails in the entire Star Trek, and I basically have to ignore it ever happened lest the character of Janeway is permanently ruined for me. I'm sure that not even Jellico would have condoned such an action!

 

It's funny how the people who try to justify Janeway's actions usually do it by ignoring part of the facts. Like for example that only in a dictatorship could Janeway alone decide to murder someone without even consulting anyone else, and I am not counting the stupid Kes who dumped Neelix only a few months after this episode where cries crocodile tears to have him back!!!

 

Are you forget about tuvoks family. Just because they weren’t there doesn’t mean what they would’ve wanted should be ignored. Now being vulcans the probably wouldn’t say it but I’m sure they would’ve wanted Janeway to get tuvok back. you guys keep forgetting it’s a transporter accident. Keyword accident if it wasn’t for the transporter to tuvix never would’ve left. He’s own name is the combination of them. By the way it’s not a dictatorship it’s called Captain being in command.

 

None of this matters! it doesn't matter how Tuvix was created, he was a sapient being with rights! Nor does it matter how much anyone wanted Tuvok or (inexplicably) Neelix back. None of this justifies a murder, nor should a Captain have a right to order such. Chakotay should have relieved Janeway from command, but he was a similar spineless loser that the rest of the officers in this episode, and abdicated his moral responsibility.

 

I’m not saying it wasn’t a murder I’m saying it was justifiable murder. At the end of the day she got back two valuable crewmembers. In the terms of logistics two crewmembers are usually better than one. You guys keep forgetting this was an accident. Oh another thing do you really think Janeway really wanted to do this if she had a choice. Not sure if she could choose not to separate them but in essence that be sacrificing tuvok and neelix. Two of her crewmembers were mutilated under her watch. She has a duty to protect her crewmembers and to the best of her abilities make sure they all come back.
So like the Vulcan saying says: the needs of the many outweigh the needs of the few or the one.
I’m just surprised everybody’s willing to just sacrifice neelix and tuvok

 

Yeah, that's fucking monstrous. Literally no better than starting to murder people so that their organs can be distributed to those who need them. And do not pervert Spock's words to defend this utterly despicable logic; he was talking about a personal sacrifice, about his own choice.