Spoilers Star Trek: Discovery 2x06 - "The Sound of Thunder"

[Gepard]

Have we ever had definitively that you can't beam off a starship with the shields up? Presumably if you knew your own shield frequency you could achieve it.

Well, we've seen Starfleet ships have to drop shields to beam people back, be it from planets or whatever, so presumably the same applies. If knowing their own shield frequency doesn't do it for beaming up, why would it work for beaming down?

 

[Tuskin38]

Well, we've seen Starfleet ships have to drop shields to beam people back, be it from planets or whatever, so presumably the same applies. If knowing their own shield frequency doesn't do it for beaming up, why would it work for beaming down?

Shields might only be one way.

 

[Amaris]

I meant in the context of the 1960s. What could they have done, as writers back then. That's what I meant. I think a technobabble solution takes the power out of "Where No Man Has Gone Before" and "City on the Edge of Forever". People have said I'm too harsh when it comes to TNG, and this is one of the reasons why. It standardized the "This is Star Trek, let's change the doo-hickeys!" Solution to dilemmas. VOY made it even worse. At the end of "City on the Edge of Forever", Kirk's short, curt, "Let's get the Hell out here" works a whole lot better than some stupid Data/Geordi-inspired solution.

I think that solutions should come at a cost. Spock was rescued from Genesis, but it came at the cost of David's life. The Klingon War was ended, but it came at the cost of turning to a Terran and resorting to the extreme of L'Rell having the power to destroy Qo'noS to make the other Klingons fall in line. Sisko lied, cheated, bribed, and became an accessory to murder to get the Romulans go join the war against the Dominion. Those types of things. Things that both DS9 and DSC have remembered that TOS used to do sometimes.

Kirk could've warned Edith Keeler about Hitler but she wouldn't have believed him and asked, "How do you know?" He could've told her not to make sure the United States entered World War II but she probably wouldn't have listened and was strong-willed enough to do whatever she would've wanted to do regardless. Which means Kirk was in a shitty situation. Maybe he could've taken Edith with him but there's no way to know if the Guardian of Forever would've allowed for that. Too many variables... and none of them make for as good of an episode.

In "Where No Man Has Gone Before", Kirk tried to just leave it at marooning Gary Mitchell, but then Gary wouldn't let Kirk do it, and then it became a situation of kill or be killed.

The whole situation with Culber's return is weird, but as long as it follows up on how things aren't as they were before, then I'm okay with it as a sci-fi exploration of someone coming back from where they were.

There is no cost in Star Trek. Yeah, David died, but remember why he died? Because his dad's best friend was a reanimated corpse with no memory because that very same friend had transferred his soul into a human being who was then rejoined in a "this is very dangerous b-, oh it's done" ceremony, right before they time traveled back to the past to save two humpback whales in order to repopulate the species so an alien whale probe that had traveled goddess knows how many light years to get up close and personal would leave them alone, and which was never seen again. Of course, after that they traveled to the center of the galaxy, met God, shot God, went home, and was later sent to prison for assassinating the Klingon Chancellor before being rescued by a shapeshifter who was assassinated for being involved in a plot to get the Klingons back to war with the Federation, and then we jump to the next movie which involves inter-dimensional time travel where Kirk dies twice but isn't actually dead because he's still also in that inter-dimensional time rift.

I love Star Trek, I really do, but I have long since learned that nothing is truly dead in Star Trek, nothing is truly sacrificed unless it's convenient and forgettable. Even in TOS, Scotty is killed, back same episode. McCoy is killed, back same episode. Uhura's memory is completely wiped, back to work next episode. In real life, these people would have been in psychological counseling after even a handful of events we see in these episodes.

 

[Greg Cox]

Gary Mitchell didn't have to be killed.
Edith Keeler didn't have to die.

Not in a world like Star Trek's where everything is possible at any given moment with any technology whether real or imagined. It was just a more binary way of thinking back when Spock's character was still being fleshed out.

But where is the tragedy and emotion in that? These are stories, built around wrenching human dramas, not intellectual exercises in problem-solving. Heaven help STAR TREK if we start thinking that the Federation's magic technology means that every story can be solved with a clever technological fix and we never need to have an unhappy ending ever again . . ...

 

[Amaris]

But where is the tragedy and emotion in that? These are stories, built around wrenching human dramas, not intellectual exercises in problem-solving. Heaven help STAR TREK if we start thinking that the Federation's magic technology means that every story can be solved with a clever technological fix and we never need to have an unhappy ending ever again . . ...

My point is that because of this magic technology, there are always more than two options, and that at times it becomes glaringly obvious, especially when Spock is the one advocating the murder of another crew member, godlike powers or no. Same applies to Edith Keeler. Even TOS made time travel seem something that could be controlled.

 

[Burning Hearts of Qo'nos]

But where is the tragedy and emotion in that? These are stories, built around wrenching human dramas, not intellectual exercises in problem-solving. Heaven help STAR TREK if we start thinking that the Federation's magic technology means that every story can be solved with a clever technological fix and we never need to have an unhappy ending ever again . . ...

I think Admiral Janeway would like to have a word with you.

 

[Michael]

Interesting that many of you seem to find this lacking, but for me this was easily the best episode of Discovery to date. It might not have been perfect – what's up with the constantly moving camera, for instance – but I don't think I ever felt quite this entertained while watching the show. Please let the show continue with this quality!

It's nice to see a follow-up (conclusion?) to Saru's story, that didn't feel stupid and actually was pretty surprising in some moments (I really thought the Ba'ul were just an evolved form of the Kelpiens). What we learned about the Red Angel in this was very interesting. I still think they are the Preservers from “The Paradise Syndrome”. The shared obelisk design just can't be a coincidence and I think they actually gave the technology to the Ba'ul. Will be interesting to see how they tie it all together in the end. So far this mystery has been very intriguing.

I also liked how they are going about the Culber situation. It's nice that he isn't just back and everything is back to normal, but that he actually has to work through this. I'm curious where they are going with this. What did feel kind of weird was how that part of the storyline kind of disappeared halfway through the episode.

I hope we get more explanation about them, including how they developed such advanced technology while being pursued to the brink of extinction by the Kelpians.

My guess is that they didn't really develop it at all but that it was provided by the Red Angels/Preservers, just like the obelisk in “Paradise”, only with the Ba'ul developing a better understanding of the technology.

Speaking of transporters, I found it distracting just how obvious it was that the interior of the Ba'ul ship was a redress of the Discovery transporter room. The support struts around the transporter platform-slash-black pool were especially obvious.

Yeah, that distracted me as well. They sure tried to hide it with weird camera angles, different light and heavy effects, but it was very clearly a redress of the transporter set.

Am I the only one who wondered how Saru managed to beam off the Disco at Red Alert and therefore with the shields up?

No, I didn't notice that. I must say I'm more worried by the authors seemingly misunderstanding that transporters aren't meant for interstellar travel across the quadrant, which is how they portrayed it in a couple of instances now (though not in this episode). This misunderstanding undermines the whole idea of using starships for space travel.

EDIT: The first 15 minutes of the episode were pretty heavy on info dumps, which was almost too much, I think. In general they are telling rather than showing way to much on this show.

Another thing I loved in this episode, again, was the music. So great!

 

[Lord Garth]

I think it's safe to say a lot us aren't on the same page.

 

[Alan Roi]

My point is that because of this magic technology, there are always more than two options, and that at times it becomes glaringly obvious, especially when Spock is the one advocating the murder of another crew member, godlike powers or no. Same applies to Edith Keeler. Even TOS made time travel seem something that could be controlled.

And yet even Voyager was willing to tell its audience that was cheap wish-fulfillment storytelling that denied important aspects of the human experience to be shared truthfully (Real Life).

 

[Amaris]

And yet even Voyager was willing to tell its audience that was cheap wish-fulfillment storytelling that denied important aspects of the human experience to be shared truthfully (Real Life).

Voyager is probably not the best example for discussing the disadvantages of a world filled with cheap wish fulfillment.

 

[matthunter]

I think it's safe to say a lot us aren't on the same page.

You can change that in User CP.

 

[Alan Roi]

I'm more worried by the authors seemingly misunderstanding that transporters aren't meant for interstellar travel across the quadrant, which is how they portrayed it in a couple of instances now.

When exactly did they do this explicitely?

 

[Alan Roi]

Voyager is probably not the best example for discussing the disadvantages of a world filled with cheap wish fulfillment.

I thought it was quite self aware meta commentary. Which I could appreciate.

 

[Amaris]

I thought it was quite self aware meta commentary. Which I could appreciate.

Meta commentary works best, I think, when it is followed by action. Simply saying something is wrong, and then doing nothing to change anything is a bit hypocritical.

 

[StarMan]

One of the more enjoyable episodes. Story seemed a bit more focused and less rushed/cutty. But still a 6-7... It's a pity the best Discovery has done for me thus far is half-decent.

So, the Red Angel is a time traveler in a mechanized suit which is manipulating Discovery's missions, as well as having a connection with Burnham / Spock. Please, I beg TPTB - tell me it's not either of them.

Doug Jones, again, is the standout performance.

The Ba'ku... er... Ba'ul? Well, the blatantly evil looking dudes who come close to winning an Armus lookalike content. Erm... how stupid are they? God I hate it when antagonists are severely lobotomized to accommodate Our Heroes™ escape. Those menacing looking drones with their exposed blender blades... hovering there waiting to be struck by Saru. Wouldn't a phaser weapon embedded in the wall make a *tad* more sense? Saru starts causing trouble.... Tzzzzzzzz! Stunned/dead. Also, I'm glad I'm not the only one who thought of Anubis's ship from SG-1 when their stronghold emerged.

Tyler's bit at the end. Fell flat as a pancake, as does anything involving him. I do find it a bit jarring how he's gone from torchbearer to S31 advocate seemingly overnight. Frankly, he doesn't seem a good fit for the organisation.

We're halfway thru the season now (are we?). Let's get to the meat and potatoes of Red Angel/Spock storyline. I'm thinking if time travel is involved, it's a good chance it's someone we already know... One thing I do know... There will be more monologues.

 

[DaveyNY]

I've always imagined that the "god" from Trek V is what Gary Mitchell would have eventually become.
And who ever put that god behind energy bars, would have done the same to Gary at some point.

 

[Michael]

When exactly did they do this explicitely?

Explicitly? I don't know about explicitly, but off the top of my head, the end of “Runaway” and the beginning of last week's “Obol” had them use the transporter with seemingly no ship or planet around.

 

[Amaris]

I've always imagined that the "god" from Trek V is what Gary Mitchell would have eventually become.
And who ever put that god behind energy bars, would have done the same to Gary at some point.

Turns out there's a shitload of god beings in the Star Trek universe.

 

[Succubint]

I just want to point out that the Ba'ul creature was portrayed by an actor called Javier Botet. Look him up, he's a well known monster character actor. So while the slime was cgi, there was a live actor under there. Think Doug Jones but even taller and thinner.

As for the Edith Keeler/Gary Mitchell/Kelpien vs Ba'ul debate, I really liked how on TOS sometimes there were no solutions left and Kirk had to make the best worst decision he could. This is far more realistic than always coming up with a technobabble last second 'third way' that TNG and VOY sometimes leaned on. Kirk certainly tried other options first before being forced to act. Similarly, I think it was clear that Pike's hand was forced. He attempted to mediate first and offer to settle the situation diplomatically, but the Ba'ul were in panic mode and unlikely to listen. In fact, they were prepared for planetwide slaughter.

While it's great to see Discovery prevail, I do enjoy seeing them faced with choices which aren't so clear cut or easy to skirt the consequences of.

I had no problems with Tyler's scenes, myself. He was fulfilling his role as liaison between Pike and S31. He's there as a sounding board and to offer a different perspective. One which is less forgiving and kumbaya when it comes to such situations. He has a unique perspective, too, having both Voq's memories and his own. He's been bowel deep in state espionage and treachery before, and seen and experienced the full cost of being at war at first hand. Of course he's going to be wary of new incursions which might lead to more war and conflict. Pike is not his commanding officer, so he can speak more freely if he wants to, up to a point.

I've noticed some push back on the internet if anyone dares to appear to undermine Pike's authority. It's interesting to observe. While he's the captain and has final say, Pike is also working with experts he's asking for input from. In this episode, for instance, he appointed Burnham as the lead on the mission. Which is why he consulted with her on some decisions. Yet people are chafing at what appears to be his deference to her. Saru gets some flak for being insubordinate and yep he did come dangerously close to that, but Pike knew when to draw the line and order him off the bridge before he crossed it. Pike gave him some leeway because he understood why Saru was so compromised. Similarly, he consults with Tyler. He doesn't always agree with what he says, but it's good to get different perspectives. If there's tension there, it's understandable and will probably eventually be resolved as a plot point.

I really like Pike's command style, but some people seem to want him to be more hard-nosed and authoritarian. I don't. I like him leading in a way that's still respectful and accepting of the advice/recommendations of his crew. He seems to admit when he's not an expert on a subject or having doubts about the way forward, that's refreshing. But in the end, he does still make the final decision and makes it decisively.

I think the issue with what Pike decided to do with the Kelpiens might be easier to accept if we acknowledge that the word 'evolve' and 'evolution' is being used a tad erroneously by the ST writers. At least, it seemed clear to me that what was really happening was a kind of puberty, a maturation process which was always supposed to happen to adult Kelpiens. Basically if left to their own devices and not slaughtered routinely by the Ba'ul as soon as they matured, they would lose their ganglia (and fear mechanism) and would develop more deadly quill sacs. That Pike accelerated this normal physiological process was unfortunate but they were running out of time. I do think this is different than forcing a different stage of evolution on a species (and ST still has wonky linear thinking about what evolution means at the best of times).

 

[DaveyNY]

Turns out there's a shitload of god beings in the Star Trek universe.

Just imagine if They had decided to actually make that being Gary Mitchell in TFF...
Oh the conversations that would still be raging 30 years later!



Kirk "... Why does God need a starship?"

GaryGod "...Cause you dropped a big-ass MF'n rock on me and I want you to suffer!"

Kirk "GARY, How are You? Long time no see."