THE ORVILLE S2, E5: "ALL THE WORLD IS BIRTHDAY CAKE"
- Thread starter Mudd
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I think probably the reason why some are hating on the episode is because in many ways, it felt like your mediocre TNG or VOY script. It had all the same plot beats. Crew makes first contact with a nice planet. 2 crew members get falsely imprisoned for convoluted reasons. Throw in a little action where the imprisoned characters try to escape but fail. Negotiations fail but in the end some clever technobabble trick works. Lead characters moralize about the consequences of their action, and ship flies into the stars. the end.
The episode definitely had a lot of implausible elements. For one, it is implausible that a technologically advanced society would still take superstition so seriously as to make it a planet wide policy to imprison people born under the "wrong" sign. As technology progresses, superstitions tend to go away. We see that on Earth now. Astrology has drastically lost its influence over the centuries. Today, there are very few people who actually take it super seriously. Even the people who do check their horoscope, do it mostly for fun.
Also, how could the planet be so uniform in their beliefs? Just look at the diversity of religions and beliefs on Earth! Even if imprisoning people born under a certain sign was official planetary policy that most people accepted, surely there should be some folks who don't believe it in. Maybe there are some scientists who are in the minority but know it is wrong? It would have been nice to see at least one person on the planet dissent or confide in Mercer that not everyone on the planet believes in astrology.
Then, why not just send Kelly and Bortus back to the Orville? Getting them off the planet would be good enough. And as others have stated, they were born on other planets with different constellations, months, years. The astrological signs would be meaningless anyway. Basically, Kelly and Bortus were imprisoned just to give the Orville a reason to stick around.
Having said all that, I like the characters and I like the show. But yeah, don't think too hard about this one.
The episode definitely had a lot of implausible elements. For one, it is implausible that a technologically advanced society would still take superstition so seriously as to make it a planet wide policy to imprison people born under the "wrong" sign. As technology progresses, superstitions tend to go away. We see that on Earth now. Astrology has drastically lost its influence over the centuries. Today, there are very few people who actually take it super seriously. Even the people who do check their horoscope, do it mostly for fun.
Also, how could the planet be so uniform in their beliefs? Just look at the diversity of religions and beliefs on Earth! Even if imprisoning people born under a certain sign was official planetary policy that most people accepted, surely there should be some folks who don't believe it in. Maybe there are some scientists who are in the minority but know it is wrong? It would have been nice to see at least one person on the planet dissent or confide in Mercer that not everyone on the planet believes in astrology.
Then, why not just send Kelly and Bortus back to the Orville? Getting them off the planet would be good enough. And as others have stated, they were born on other planets with different constellations, months, years. The astrological signs would be meaningless anyway. Basically, Kelly and Bortus were imprisoned just to give the Orville a reason to stick around.
Having said all that, I like the characters and I like the show. But yeah, don't think too hard about this one.
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It was enjoyable but flawed. The whole premise that people born under an astrological sign are branded criminals and imprisoned really falls apart when you think about it. Is there otherwise no crime on this planet? That can't be the case, the Prefect's announcement stated anyone who did not give up their children born during the month of the evil sign would be incarcerated, so they obviously have provisions for someone who commits a crime other than being born under the wrong zodiac. Yes, aside from the Prefect's speech there is no reference to this, nor is it even brought up at all in the episode. And it was just a bit too convenient that the "return" of that star motivated the government to automatically shut down the concentration camps and grant citizenships to all those born under that zodiac. Also, do these people have no space program of their own? They've launched satellites into orbit, but no orbital space stations?
Even when this show bungles up a plot like this one did, they still come off as doing things a bit better than Star Trek. Mostly in that the premise wasn't solved by having Ed preach Earth values to these people making them discover the error of their ways and guiltily undoing their cultural segregation. The actual solution is still flawed and will backfire in their faces someday, but it is a preferable solution to me. Also like the episode takes place over the span of a month with Kelly and Bortus in prison and the Orville stuck in orbit trying to secure their release. Again, most shows would have had the events condensed over the course of a few days at most.
The new Xeleyan security officer is alright. So far they haven't done much to differentiate her from Alara, though I do like that she apparently has a bit of a badass streak in her with the bit about her punching her previous captain for the good of the ship. At the very least, this sells the idea that Orville could get another prized Xeleyan assigned to the ship, if this one has disciplinary problems.
Scientific nitpick: It was said the star collapsed into a black hole some three thousand years ago, which roughly corresponds with when the persecution of people born under its astrological sign began. But in fact, the light from that star should have been visible long after the actual star disappeared. It's easily solved, the star in fact collapsed much earlier and three thousand years prior is when the light finally vanished from their night sky. I guess I can see the need for simplifying the dialogue for dramatic purposes, but it was still rather sloppy.
Even when this show bungles up a plot like this one did, they still come off as doing things a bit better than Star Trek. Mostly in that the premise wasn't solved by having Ed preach Earth values to these people making them discover the error of their ways and guiltily undoing their cultural segregation. The actual solution is still flawed and will backfire in their faces someday, but it is a preferable solution to me. Also like the episode takes place over the span of a month with Kelly and Bortus in prison and the Orville stuck in orbit trying to secure their release. Again, most shows would have had the events condensed over the course of a few days at most.
The new Xeleyan security officer is alright. So far they haven't done much to differentiate her from Alara, though I do like that she apparently has a bit of a badass streak in her with the bit about her punching her previous captain for the good of the ship. At the very least, this sells the idea that Orville could get another prized Xeleyan assigned to the ship, if this one has disciplinary problems.
Scientific nitpick: It was said the star collapsed into a black hole some three thousand years ago, which roughly corresponds with when the persecution of people born under its astrological sign began. But in fact, the light from that star should have been visible long after the actual star disappeared. It's easily solved, the star in fact collapsed much earlier and three thousand years prior is when the light finally vanished from their night sky. I guess I can see the need for simplifying the dialogue for dramatic purposes, but it was still rather sloppy.
I took it to mean that they assumed everyone had a bad astrological sign and had a similar means of dealing with it, because that was how flawed their logic was. They believed their beliefs were universal.
I thought Talla was going to have a "fuck it" moment and take a shuttle and get them.
And I thought maybe Kelly delivering the special child would have a cultural significance that would lead to their release.
Creating a fake star on a loosely based theory with no guarantee it would work, I guess they should thank their lucky stars that it did.
And if a prison escape and death of local police doesn't constitute an Interstellar Incident, I don't know what will. Maybe none of them died, right. Or they were born under the "police" sign so their deaths in the line of duty are expected?
And.....
Jib Jab? Is that still a thing?
I thought Talla was going to have a "fuck it" moment and take a shuttle and get them.
And I thought maybe Kelly delivering the special child would have a cultural significance that would lead to their release.
Creating a fake star on a loosely based theory with no guarantee it would work, I guess they should thank their lucky stars that it did.
And if a prison escape and death of local police doesn't constitute an Interstellar Incident, I don't know what will. Maybe none of them died, right. Or they were born under the "police" sign so their deaths in the line of duty are expected?
And.....
Jib Jab? Is that still a thing?
Good point. Since we know astrology does not work, statistically with a planetary population that big, there should be a lot of people born under other signs that commit criminal acts or acts of violence. That should instantly disprove their belief in astrology. The only way it might kinda maybe work is if the belief in astrology is so ingrained that it has become a self-fulfilling prophecy. We know that environment plays a big role in shaping people's character and behavior. People born into poverty and crime are more likely to become criminals and people born in affluence and education are more likely to avoid crime. And we know that people born under that particular sign on that planet are considered leaders and blessed based on the president's speech and are given lots of socio-economic advantages. So it would follow that these folks are given privilege, education and opportunity and have little reason to resort to crime. Thus, society thinks they are not prone to crime and it confirms their astrological bias. But the episode did not really go this deep.
Yes. I kept thinking that throughout the episode. I also wondered about what if our sun and/or the Moclan sun was actually part of that constellation...
That would be nice. I also might have Garrett Wang play an ensign...
Yeah, it was nice scene.
I agree it was a very flawed episode.
Agreed. Starfleet would've done a major investigation of a species prior to contacting them (and they wouldn't bother a non-warp capable species or alternatively, would've explored under deep cover) so if they found out that planet is run by a bunch of Nazis who committed genocide, I think they would've stayed the hell away from it.
Plus The Prime Directive would've prevented them from doing any major intervention like creating the new star they did. Hell, even relatively minor interventions are a no-no. Just ask Data in "Pen Pals" when he wanted to go down to rescue his new best friend whose about to be destroyed by a massive volcano eruption.
I know many folks here like Orville because there's no real equivalent of PD in the Orville-verse, but Starfleet has good reasons to put it out there....
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Yeah, and when Ed reaches for that he sounds fatuous - as, for that matter, the Trek characters do.
In fact I love the show for jettisoning that bullshit.
He definitely would have, although I suspect as the planet is not a warp (or quantum-drive) capable planet, there's a good chance he'll order the Enterprise to stay out of the planet - after placing a 'not ready for First Contact' buoy nearby to warn other ships to stay away from the Nazi planet.
Picard, Sisko, and Janeway would've sent a fully armed rescue team to extract Kelly and Bortus, or alternatively they would've located and transported them back to the ship, as having a transporter/teleport is one advantage the Trek-verse have over the Orville-verse - where PU doesn't use the teleport even though they know (from their encounter with the Kelly planet people in 'Mad Idolatry' that technology does exist,
Not if they considered it a diplomatic issue. Picard in particular left his people in bad situations more than once until he could figure a acceptable way out. The writers always provided one, frequently lame.
I could see Sisko or Janeway taking the more forceful approach to rescue Kelly and Bortus because they were more hands-on about things. I don't think Picard would have, at least not at first. In the series, he was more diplomatic. He probably would have accepted the planet's customs at least at first and only used force later if necessary.
One of the many, many elements of this episode that made no sense: If no one really has ever tried to escape from the prison camp, why bother having walls, watchtowers, or even armed guards. These people have supposedly internalized their status as inferior violence-prone individuals who need to be sequestered away. It doesn't have to be San Quentin in the desert.
But of course it does, for the drama of the week. Likely the line the father of the baby said was just a throwaway line that no one in the writer's room thought about, except that it sounded cool and made the culture seem even more fucked up.
But of course it does, for the drama of the week. Likely the line the father of the baby said was just a throwaway line that no one in the writer's room thought about, except that it sounded cool and made the culture seem even more fucked up.
I don't want to get too wrapped up in parsing weekly ratings - this show is likely on the cancellation bubble and may not continue, at least not in current form, past this season so weekly fluctuations are not gonna tell us much.
With that disclaimer, it held steady in the 18/49 rating/share at .7/3 and the total audience ticked up from 2.98 to 3.14 million. Its season low was the week of the first regularly scheduled episode, a .6/3 and 2.82 million.
With that disclaimer, it held steady in the 18/49 rating/share at .7/3 and the total audience ticked up from 2.98 to 3.14 million. Its season low was the week of the first regularly scheduled episode, a .6/3 and 2.82 million.
I'm now imagining (and perhaps it would work even better in light of this episode) a situation where for some reason, astrology or choose-your-own-pseudoscience actually did work. There could of course be a not-immediately-clear underlying scientific principle in play, but the point would be that what would be taken for hokum anywhere else was actually valid in this case.
Perhaps a bit like the game in "Rivals", where the game itself seemed harmless, but then started messing with probabilities and such.
Like, imagine if the leader of that planet actually had very good reasons, beyond superstition, for believing that people born under that sign would uniformly have issues?
Perhaps a bit like the game in "Rivals", where the game itself seemed harmless, but then started messing with probabilities and such.
Like, imagine if the leader of that planet actually had very good reasons, beyond superstition, for believing that people born under that sign would uniformly have issues?
Here's the thing - I grant The Orville really preposterous story premises at the outset of episodes - partly because I've comfortably done the same thing for fifty years with Star Trek, and this show is so much more entertaining most weeks than Trek is.
But that "entertaining" bit - that's the main bit. Most weeks, Orville manages by the climax to do something with the premise that just tickles the hell out of me. My weekly experience has been rather dependably something along the lines of:
This one reached stage 2, and then fell flat. Astrology as the intellectual basis of a scientific culture is probably a bridge too far, for lots of reasons, but as I alluded to earlier if the show turns out to be primarily about something more interesting than the jumping-off point - as it usually does - I'm okay with it. This time, it didn't.
The whole story eventually devolved this time into only a standard procedural shoot-out and cocked weapon pointed at the heroes. And then a civilization based in the most rigid kind of false belief upended itself immediately (fast enough to save two people from imminent execution) by responding rationally to a new piece of information that challenged the way they'd lived for thousands of years. That's weak tea.
But that "entertaining" bit - that's the main bit. Most weeks, Orville manages by the climax to do something with the premise that just tickles the hell out of me. My weekly experience has been rather dependably something along the lines of:
- Five minutes in: Well, that's kinda unlikely, but novel;
- 20 minutes in: I dunno where they're going with this one. Not quite buying it; and
- 40 minutes in: <Smiling and clapping>
This one reached stage 2, and then fell flat. Astrology as the intellectual basis of a scientific culture is probably a bridge too far, for lots of reasons, but as I alluded to earlier if the show turns out to be primarily about something more interesting than the jumping-off point - as it usually does - I'm okay with it. This time, it didn't.
The whole story eventually devolved this time into only a standard procedural shoot-out and cocked weapon pointed at the heroes. And then a civilization based in the most rigid kind of false belief upended itself immediately (fast enough to save two people from imminent execution) by responding rationally to a new piece of information that challenged the way they'd lived for thousands of years. That's weak tea.
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Again, the worst thing about this episode by far was that all it really contained was the heavy-handed anti-astrology message and the rote Trek procedural. Even with all the plot holes, it would have been forgivable if we learned something - anything - about the characters. But we got nothing. We could have just as easily had Claire and Gordon imprisoned and the episode would have run almost exactly the same.
Hell, it would have been great if Claire went down, and it turns out one of her kids had a birthday in the forbidden month. Added more real pathos to the show.
Although, on Voyager they did something similar. In False Profits, Ferengi stranded in the Delta Quadrant manipulate a culture's religion to make themselves look like gods spoken of in a prophecy. So, the Voyager crew detonate photon torpedoes in orbit as a means of creating conditions spoken of in the same prophecy to represent the departure of these gods as pretense to get the Ferengi beamed out.
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